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> Most managers don’t know how to manage a remote team and their employer still hasn’t trained them. If a manager is struggling with a remote team, that’s usua

> Most managers don’t know how to manage a remote team and their employer still hasn’t trained them. If a manager is struggling with a remote team, that’s usually a sign that they’re generally incompetent as a manager. There may be a few cases of good overall managers that struggle with remote. But they’re few and far between. The vast majority of bad remote managers are bad because they’re plain bad managers. It’s not a lack of training. Remote management is pretty much nothing more than basic management 101. Mediocre operators prefer in-office because it’s easier to kludge something that gives off the appearance of actual management. When a team transitions to full remote, it’s like the tide going out and finding out who’s swimming naked. If companies were sensible, they’d embrace full remote because it quickly reveals where the weak points in the org chart are. And rather than capitulating to demands, any middle manager lobbying for a return to the office is probably a good candidate to trim the fat.

jayd16 5y ago
I personally find it much harder to onboard new people. It was easier to notice when someone is lost/struggling when you could see more body language. Mentoring in a pair/XP style feels a bit harder over Zoom but the tools are getting better. Planning meetings (or any type of open discussions) are much more grating to me with the Zoom lag and cross talk. Heads down, ticket based work has less distractions though. Maybe I just suck but I feel much more adept at in person interactions than remote interactions and its not about appearances.
_nalply 5y ago
Many companies function on thick layers of bullshit [1]. I liked your metaphor: when the tide goes out we see the shit below the water. Managers don't like when they lose face. [1]: please read David Graeber, may he rest in peace.
maybelsyrup 5y ago
> The vast majority of bad remote managers are bad because they’re plain bad managers. 1000x this. Much of the time, people in management were promoted there because they were complete shit at line / front of house / customer or client-facing work and someone up top didn't feel like firing them that day. After all, if you were good at line work, why would they promote you away from it? It makes perfect sense that they'd be complete shit at managing teams, too -- remote or in-person.
- endymi0n 5y ago
  Do any of my parent comments have any actual management experience? Because while it‘s super easy to ramble about managers, they‘re essential to any company that‘s larger than a dozen people. Management attracts scorn. I have to ignore it as people who don‘t see the importance have no clue what it takes to build a winning team and company. And while I‘m still trying to learn how to manage a remote team and getting good feedback, I hate it. As in, I utterly, completely despise it and I‘m close to burnout and think about leaving the profession to just do engineering on my own. Maybe I still haven‘t figured it out, but I feel like I have the choice between still trying to connect to humans and suffer from Zoom fatigue — or go all-in on async, having the feeling that I‘m chatting all day with a black box of meaningless, replaceable NLP models. It‘s lonely, it‘s tiring and I‘m so looking back to connecting to real humans. If you have tips, I welcome them.
  - remotereallife 5y ago
    Try to get a non-work private life with non-virtual contacts. Or maybe move to Sweden - it's more common to seek family and friends in your company - with all strings attached…
    - triptec 5y ago
      I’m from Sweden and most of my friends are old or current coworkers except for my oldest that’s from my school or university days. Is this not common elsewhere? If it’s not I think I should consider myself lucky as I believe that is a big factor in how much I enjoy going to work. I’m somewhat split on remote or not. For me I enjoy work more at a office with my coworkers but having a commute around 30 minutes and not having the possibility of just eating whatever’s in the fridge or being able to split the responsibility of a sick child in smaller pieces than a full day makes the practicalities of remote work very nice.
  - mellavora 5y ago
    I've been working/managing remote for 15-20 years. I agree with the posters, that the skills which make a manager successful can be executed remotely as well as in person. Buy "High Output Management" by Andy Grove. Read it. I've read it cover to cover 6 times now and still find gold each time I review it. It is hard to know everything about your situation from you post, but your more emphasized issue is you seem to be missing a 'real connection to real humans'. Yes, of course a manager needs to be connected to the team, and that empathy/earned respect is essential.... but it can be built using remote means as well as in person. You show respect through words and actions, those can be written as well as spoken. Maybe you personally put a lot of emphasis on the immediate feedback of face to face to feel that connection? Truth is, while that immediate feedback feels great and helps you tune your message, it isn't the foundation. The foundation is the thing you are getting the feedback on. If the message is "Team, here is the goal for the week and why it matters", the foundation is that each person sees the goal and how their effort contributes to it. It is great when everyone high-fives around the room, but high-fives without the understanding are a false signal. You are correct that managers are essential to building a winning team. You probably have a list of what roles/jobs/tasks a manager does to achieve this. You could write down that list, and for each item write your current process for achieving it. You could then think about how you can map that process to a remote work framework.
bryanrasmussen 5y ago
>Remote management is pretty much nothing more than basic management 101. this seems to be saying that remote management is easier than normal management without the ability to observe people during the course the day. maybe this seems counterintuitive to me because I don't really know much about management; perhaps you can expand?
- bps4484 5y ago
  I'm not the original poster, but I agree with the sentiment and can explain how it's not easier: Take any number of "fundamentals" of management: having regular 1-1s, regular reviews, having planning meetings with the team, long term goal setting, operations reviews, etc, etc (yes, management is a lot of meetings). If an office setting, you can feel like you're doing these on an ad hoc basis, and maybe you or others can do successfully this in an ad hoc way (although if this is the general way of doing things, and your org is large enough, I would guarantee there is a manager that isn't doing this well). But this way of managing completely falls on its face when people start going remote. If you aren't regularly scheduling this stuff then it's just not happening, or people are getting left out. So I would say that remote management isn't easier, but it makes it very apparent who is doing the management basics, and who is not.

jayd16 5y ago

I personally find it much harder to onboard new people. It was easier to notice when someone is lost/struggling when you could see more body language. Mentoring in a pair/XP style feels a bit harder over Zoom but the tools are getting better. Planning meetings (or any type of open discussions) are much more grating to me with the Zoom lag and cross talk. Heads down, ticket based work has less distractions though. Maybe I just suck but I feel much more adept at in person interactions than remote interactions and its not about appearances.

_nalply 5y ago

Many companies function on thick layers of bullshit [1]. I liked your metaphor: when the tide goes out we see the shit below the water. Managers don't like when they lose face. [1]: please read David Graeber, may he rest in peace.

maybelsyrup 5y ago

> The vast majority of bad remote managers are bad because they’re plain bad managers. 1000x this. Much of the time, people in management were promoted there because they were complete shit at line / front of house / customer or client-facing work and someone up top didn't feel like firing them that day. After all, if you were good at line work, why would they promote you away from it? It makes perfect sense that they'd be complete shit at managing teams, too -- remote or in-person.

endymi0n 5y ago
Do any of my parent comments have any actual management experience? Because while it‘s super easy to ramble about managers, they‘re essential to any company that‘s larger than a dozen people. Management attracts scorn. I have to ignore it as people who don‘t see the importance have no clue what it takes to build a winning team and company. And while I‘m still trying to learn how to manage a remote team and getting good feedback, I hate it. As in, I utterly, completely despise it and I‘m close to burnout and think about leaving the profession to just do engineering on my own. Maybe I still haven‘t figured it out, but I feel like I have the choice between still trying to connect to humans and suffer from Zoom fatigue — or go all-in on async, having the feeling that I‘m chatting all day with a black box of meaningless, replaceable NLP models. It‘s lonely, it‘s tiring and I‘m so looking back to connecting to real humans. If you have tips, I welcome them.
- remotereallife 5y ago
  Try to get a non-work private life with non-virtual contacts. Or maybe move to Sweden - it's more common to seek family and friends in your company - with all strings attached…
  - triptec 5y ago
    I’m from Sweden and most of my friends are old or current coworkers except for my oldest that’s from my school or university days. Is this not common elsewhere? If it’s not I think I should consider myself lucky as I believe that is a big factor in how much I enjoy going to work. I’m somewhat split on remote or not. For me I enjoy work more at a office with my coworkers but having a commute around 30 minutes and not having the possibility of just eating whatever’s in the fridge or being able to split the responsibility of a sick child in smaller pieces than a full day makes the practicalities of remote work very nice.
- mellavora 5y ago
  I've been working/managing remote for 15-20 years. I agree with the posters, that the skills which make a manager successful can be executed remotely as well as in person. Buy "High Output Management" by Andy Grove. Read it. I've read it cover to cover 6 times now and still find gold each time I review it. It is hard to know everything about your situation from you post, but your more emphasized issue is you seem to be missing a 'real connection to real humans'. Yes, of course a manager needs to be connected to the team, and that empathy/earned respect is essential.... but it can be built using remote means as well as in person. You show respect through words and actions, those can be written as well as spoken. Maybe you personally put a lot of emphasis on the immediate feedback of face to face to feel that connection? Truth is, while that immediate feedback feels great and helps you tune your message, it isn't the foundation. The foundation is the thing you are getting the feedback on. If the message is "Team, here is the goal for the week and why it matters", the foundation is that each person sees the goal and how their effort contributes to it. It is great when everyone high-fives around the room, but high-fives without the understanding are a false signal. You are correct that managers are essential to building a winning team. You probably have a list of what roles/jobs/tasks a manager does to achieve this. You could write down that list, and for each item write your current process for achieving it. You could then think about how you can map that process to a remote work framework.

bryanrasmussen 5y ago

>Remote management is pretty much nothing more than basic management 101. this seems to be saying that remote management is easier than normal management without the ability to observe people during the course the day. maybe this seems counterintuitive to me because I don't really know much about management; perhaps you can expand?

bps4484 5y ago
I'm not the original poster, but I agree with the sentiment and can explain how it's not easier: Take any number of "fundamentals" of management: having regular 1-1s, regular reviews, having planning meetings with the team, long term goal setting, operations reviews, etc, etc (yes, management is a lot of meetings). If an office setting, you can feel like you're doing these on an ad hoc basis, and maybe you or others can do successfully this in an ad hoc way (although if this is the general way of doing things, and your org is large enough, I would guarantee there is a manager that isn't doing this well). But this way of managing completely falls on its face when people start going remote. If you aren't regularly scheduling this stuff then it's just not happening, or people are getting left out. So I would say that remote management isn't easier, but it makes it very apparent who is doing the management basics, and who is not.