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Capitalism is global so organizing must be as well. Workers must organize at their company, sectorally across the industry, and internationally with other worke

Capitalism is global so organizing must be as well. Workers must organize at their company, sectorally across the industry, and internationally with other workers so the capitalists have no where to run.

wonderwonder 5y ago
"so the capitalists have no where to run" Who is going to finance the companies and workers that build those games then? These games cost hundreds of millions of dollars to build, who is going to front the money if they don't expect a significant return. That is capitalism in a nutshell.
- tehjoker 5y ago
  The lords of finance have historically been the enemies of the working man. All their money comes from our pockets and the people's printing press. We can run things ourselves.
  - missedthecue 5y ago
    If your money doesn't come from other people's pockets, I'm curious where it does come from.
  - wonderwonder 5y ago
    You just parroted a couple of slogans at me that sound like they belong on a Bolshevik pamphlet, you did not answer the question. Who is going to fund these things? You can claim that there are successful solo developers and you would be right, people like Notch and Eric Barone but these people are the exception and they certainly don't pay for teams of hundreds or thousands. So again, who is going to pay the bills for all of these people that are going to work at these new companies? Don't get me wrong I am not endorsing any of the actions of the people in these lawsuits but they don't represent capitalism; they are just creeps, and all groups be they economic, religious, or corporate have them. I am all for workers getting treated better and paid better, I am a worker; but just repeating slogans is not it.
    - tehjoker 5y ago
      Industry should be funded in a planned way with public money. Institutions similar to NIH/NSF should provide grants for people to be experimental. There would be a track for "scale up" for successful experiments. In certain cases such as entertainment, it might be desirable to maintain markets as a significant fraction of the industry, but we've seen how large concentrations of private money lead to companies taking "safe" and monoculture approaches to movies, games, etc. We already have huge concentrations of media doing their own planning exclusively for their own benefit right now. The planning should be made democratic. The workers will control their workplaces. The exact division of control of the industry will have to be negotiated politically and the way the rewards are shared between industry and the public generally will also be democratically decided. There are many proposals for how this might be done. It's helpful to think about the division of labor between town, state, and federal levels. The company would form a new democratic level. It forms a political entity now, but not a democratic one. The slogans are helpful because they elicit questions like yours.
      - wonderwonder 5y ago
        Good answer, I am not opposed and would actually love if the government would start providing funding to small startups so people could take risks. Currently in many cases the ability to take risk is limited to young single people, people with a supportive family or people with a significant financial cushion. Regarding "Democratically decided" spending decisions how would that be accomplished when the country is split almost 50/50 on everything? It changes very quickly if for example 50.1 % of the voting public wants money spent on border walls, police and defense. Is that not the people's will then at that time?
        tehjoker 5y ago
        I think there are a couple ways to look at your question. 1) Most people in this country don't vote (outside of a slim majority in presidential elections) for a large variety of reasons, but mostly because they know it doesn't change anything for them. The American system was designed as a system of baffles to insulate the elites from the rabble quite explicitly (indirect election of senators, 3/5 compromise, bicameral legislature with senate apportioned by territory instead of people, voting restricted to white male property owners (literally a vote by the elite only), etc), but these days it has developed into an effective democratic illusion in a path dependent fashion. So in other words, I don't think the country is split in this way, but the partisans of the two flavors of the single political party are highly polarized. Neither of them have any concern for workers, note the total lack of economic issues in their agendas and the tomfoolery around 15 $/hr minimum wage. More political participation would right the ship imo. 2) There are cases where votes are split fairly evenly on contentious issues. I'm not sure that private dictatorships are always better on these questions. Sometimes the mad king flip flops constantly, other times a hard line is taken against the will of half the people. It's something that has to be worked out politically and possibly with leadership. In some cases, I do think such things require constitutional remedies (for example, no one should be allowed to vote to re-institute slavery for example). For such close votes, I would shy away from saying the result is "the people's will", but an outcome of process. Votes are one method of measuring the will of the polity. Unfortunately, I don't think there's ever a way to be completely precise as it's possible even for people to change their minds and switch sides on an issue en mass! One example of a vote I would be skeptical of: the way Uber rigged the wording of the recent proposal to recognize its employees as contractors to get out of a court ruling. They made it sound like voting yes was voting no. Votes are really effective ways to do democracy, but I don't think there's any method we can use that allows us to stop thinking critically about it.
- jayd16 5y ago
  The goal is human rights and profit.
alexanderdmitri 5y ago
> so the capitalists have no where to run. Curious what definition of capitalist you are using here. Three common meanings according to the Oxford dictionary are: 1. a person who invests capital in business enterprises. 2. an advocate of capitalism. 3. a very wealthy person. You can advocate capitalism and also support behavioral standards and worker rights in the workplace. It's not anti-capitalist to disagree with your employer's policies or culture, standing up for you and your fellow workers' bottom line can be capitalistic in of itself. If there's a market for services to help individuals assert their rights and fight for better conditions, then investing in this market is as fundamentally capitalistic as investing in a market that services the opposite. As a capitalist, you could even invest in both these markets at the same time. Check out this index fund: https://www.invesco.com/us/financial-products/mutual-funds/quarterly-holdings?audienceType=Investor&fundId=30248 https://www.invesco.com/us/financial-products/mutual-funds/q... There's Altria (cigarettes) and Anthem (health insurance). Tesla (EVs) and Exxon (gasoline/petroleum). Even Activision (corporation of topic) and Stryker (actually no idea what this company does, so assuming they fund and profit off worker strykes). The thing about capitalism is that it doesn't run from conflict or mobs or regulation, it profits off the needs and desires these things create.

wonderwonder 5y ago

"so the capitalists have no where to run" Who is going to finance the companies and workers that build those games then? These games cost hundreds of millions of dollars to build, who is going to front the money if they don't expect a significant return. That is capitalism in a nutshell.

tehjoker 5y ago
The lords of finance have historically been the enemies of the working man. All their money comes from our pockets and the people's printing press. We can run things ourselves.
- missedthecue 5y ago
  If your money doesn't come from other people's pockets, I'm curious where it does come from.
- wonderwonder 5y ago
  You just parroted a couple of slogans at me that sound like they belong on a Bolshevik pamphlet, you did not answer the question. Who is going to fund these things? You can claim that there are successful solo developers and you would be right, people like Notch and Eric Barone but these people are the exception and they certainly don't pay for teams of hundreds or thousands. So again, who is going to pay the bills for all of these people that are going to work at these new companies? Don't get me wrong I am not endorsing any of the actions of the people in these lawsuits but they don't represent capitalism; they are just creeps, and all groups be they economic, religious, or corporate have them. I am all for workers getting treated better and paid better, I am a worker; but just repeating slogans is not it.
  - tehjoker 5y ago
    Industry should be funded in a planned way with public money. Institutions similar to NIH/NSF should provide grants for people to be experimental. There would be a track for "scale up" for successful experiments. In certain cases such as entertainment, it might be desirable to maintain markets as a significant fraction of the industry, but we've seen how large concentrations of private money lead to companies taking "safe" and monoculture approaches to movies, games, etc. We already have huge concentrations of media doing their own planning exclusively for their own benefit right now. The planning should be made democratic. The workers will control their workplaces. The exact division of control of the industry will have to be negotiated politically and the way the rewards are shared between industry and the public generally will also be democratically decided. There are many proposals for how this might be done. It's helpful to think about the division of labor between town, state, and federal levels. The company would form a new democratic level. It forms a political entity now, but not a democratic one. The slogans are helpful because they elicit questions like yours.
    - wonderwonder 5y ago
      Good answer, I am not opposed and would actually love if the government would start providing funding to small startups so people could take risks. Currently in many cases the ability to take risk is limited to young single people, people with a supportive family or people with a significant financial cushion. Regarding "Democratically decided" spending decisions how would that be accomplished when the country is split almost 50/50 on everything? It changes very quickly if for example 50.1 % of the voting public wants money spent on border walls, police and defense. Is that not the people's will then at that time?
      - tehjoker 5y ago
        I think there are a couple ways to look at your question. 1) Most people in this country don't vote (outside of a slim majority in presidential elections) for a large variety of reasons, but mostly because they know it doesn't change anything for them. The American system was designed as a system of baffles to insulate the elites from the rabble quite explicitly (indirect election of senators, 3/5 compromise, bicameral legislature with senate apportioned by territory instead of people, voting restricted to white male property owners (literally a vote by the elite only), etc), but these days it has developed into an effective democratic illusion in a path dependent fashion. So in other words, I don't think the country is split in this way, but the partisans of the two flavors of the single political party are highly polarized. Neither of them have any concern for workers, note the total lack of economic issues in their agendas and the tomfoolery around 15 $/hr minimum wage. More political participation would right the ship imo. 2) There are cases where votes are split fairly evenly on contentious issues. I'm not sure that private dictatorships are always better on these questions. Sometimes the mad king flip flops constantly, other times a hard line is taken against the will of half the people. It's something that has to be worked out politically and possibly with leadership. In some cases, I do think such things require constitutional remedies (for example, no one should be allowed to vote to re-institute slavery for example). For such close votes, I would shy away from saying the result is "the people's will", but an outcome of process. Votes are one method of measuring the will of the polity. Unfortunately, I don't think there's ever a way to be completely precise as it's possible even for people to change their minds and switch sides on an issue en mass! One example of a vote I would be skeptical of: the way Uber rigged the wording of the recent proposal to recognize its employees as contractors to get out of a court ruling. They made it sound like voting yes was voting no. Votes are really effective ways to do democracy, but I don't think there's any method we can use that allows us to stop thinking critically about it.
jayd16 5y ago
The goal is human rights and profit.

alexanderdmitri 5y ago

> so the capitalists have no where to run. Curious what definition of capitalist you are using here. Three common meanings according to the Oxford dictionary are: 1. a person who invests capital in business enterprises. 2. an advocate of capitalism. 3. a very wealthy person. You can advocate capitalism and also support behavioral standards and worker rights in the workplace. It's not anti-capitalist to disagree with your employer's policies or culture, standing up for you and your fellow workers' bottom line can be capitalistic in of itself. If there's a market for services to help individuals assert their rights and fight for better conditions, then investing in this market is as fundamentally capitalistic as investing in a market that services the opposite. As a capitalist, you could even invest in both these markets at the same time. Check out this index fund: https://www.invesco.com/us/financial-products/mutual-funds/quarterly-holdings?audienceType=Investor&fundId=30248 https://www.invesco.com/us/financial-products/mutual-funds/q... There's Altria (cigarettes) and Anthem (health insurance). Tesla (EVs) and Exxon (gasoline/petroleum). Even Activision (corporation of topic) and Stryker (actually no idea what this company does, so assuming they fund and profit off worker strykes). The thing about capitalism is that it doesn't run from conflict or mobs or regulation, it profits off the needs and desires these things create.