13 ms·

Some career advice (2019)

189 points by ZephyrBlu 5y ago

p2detar 5y ago
The last paragraph is what I actually find most useful: Finally, I suppose, I’d say that a surprising amount of a good career is about getting lucky and taking advantage of when you’ve gotten lucky. It’s clear to me that many of the best things that have happened to me were only partially in my control, if that.
- bibabaloo 5y ago
  Luck Surface Area (https://www.codusoperandi.com/posts/increasing-your-luck-surface-area https://www.codusoperandi.com/posts/increasing-your-luck-sur...) definitely applies to this, though - it's all about positioning yourself so that you have the opportunity to get lucky.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    As my father told me when I was younger, "It's amazing how much luckier well-prepared people are."
    - cableshaft 5y ago
      This is pretty obvious as a game designer in the board game industry. I'll see a publisher post on Facebook that they're accepting submissions and if I don't have something ready to show I can't take advantage of it. Happened to me just this morning, even, that I saw a publisher say they were accepting submissions I had some games that would be a good fit but I'm still trying to iron out a few things (and could have done that by now, but hadn't).
    - sethammons 5y ago
      I am a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it. --Thomas Jefferson
  - Epenthesis 5y ago
    Eh, luck + effort beats luck, but luck by itself pretty often beats effort. I'm a good deal wealthier than some much harder working + smarter friends of mine because I lucked into joining some (moderately) successful startups.
  - yobbo 5y ago
    False. Confronting bad luck with well-prepared diligent effort can be pretty bad, but you can't know if the luck is good/bad without effort. It's like handcuffing yourself to "Schrödinger's albatros". No, luck does not favour the prepared, but survivorship bias makes it seem so.
- ehnto 5y ago
  Looking back on previous opportunities I've had, I do regret not taking full advantage of them. It wasn't something I realized I should be cognizant of until later in my career though. With hindsight it's easy to see where I could have utilized each opportunity more. That is one of those 'small privileges' you get from an upbringing that teaches how to succeed I think, much like personal finance, travel, building strong relationships and so on. I know it's hard to get through to kids sometimes, but just having them keep in mind that they should be aware of these topics puts them miles ahead of others in terms of living a well lived life.
  - germinalphrase 5y ago
    “… I do regret not taking full advantage of them” Knowing how to do so - or even what ‘full advantage’ includes - is almost certainly one of those ‘you don’t know what you don’t know’ things. Obvious later in your career, but invisible at the time.
- totoglazer 5y ago
  It’s definitely been my experience that within a job, there’s lucky projects, meetings, etc projects that can come your way. Great success has come from executing them well and being aware of when to push further. Of course, there are also (in retrospect doomed) unlucky projects too, which can set you back. Still, recognizing that you can do more, or less, with converting a lucky opportunity into lucky career growth is important. Especially for those of us who are of average skill.
  - spockz 5y ago
    Instead of luck I would call it unscheduled. The after hour discussions with a colleague at the coffee machine or after a meeting. Or the moment you realise another colleague has the same issue and you fix it together.
- BobbyJo 5y ago
  This is the advice I hear most from successful people, but in varying formats, and it's the thing I think age teaches you the most: when opportunity comes knocking, answer the fucking door.
  - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
    And when money's growing on trees, pick it.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
robertwt7 5y ago
That's true, current job at big tech company happened not because I applied, but because the recruiter messaged me! Also I was looking for 20-30% raise, end up getting 2x. Amazing, mind blowing, luck, blessing, not sure what it is.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  Caveat: Know what you're getting into for the money. Usually, increased salary means a better, more interesting job. Otherwise, why would they pay you more? Occasionally, it means "This is how much we have to pay to attract someone to do the work." Realize both are possibilities, and be active in your interview to suss out which it is, and whether you'll be happy with that. (Said after a 50% salary bump landed me in a dumpster fire)
  - myth_drannon 5y ago
    Many times is that we are going to use you and burn you out in 2 years, but the pay is x3 of your current TC.
    - ta988 5y ago
      Not worth it there is so much to loose burning out that money can't replace.
      - ethbr0 5y ago
        3x TC buys a bit over 2 years (time value of money) of doing whatever you want, for every year worked. Money can't replace now time. But it can certainly buy future time.
  - robertwt7 5y ago
    Yeah.. I realise that, thanks for the reminder. However the company is growing in a very fast pace and my job right now is soo much better than the previous one. Well because previous one was in small agency, I was basically doing all the work. It includes devops, backend, frontend, only couple of devs. Now it is obviously much more focused with different teams for different purposes. Not sure how it will go but well, big tech company is pretty cool. I love my job now (meaning not burnt out yet lol)
mmcconnell1618 5y ago
I like the mention that luck/timing can be a factor. You can apply for a prestigious role where you would do extremely well but not get the position due to factors outside your control. An internal candidate was already selected, someone with just a little more experience also applied, you would be great but are missing one bullet point from the job criteria, the interviewer assigned to you does a poor job or is having a bad day. Try and maximize your luck by making sure you’re well prepared for interviews and apply for positions where your skills and interests really line up perfectly to the job description. But if it doesn’t work out, try not to take it personally, just reset and try again.
- dhosek 5y ago
  I can remember during the hiring process a couple jobs back when we were looking to expand our team saying during the post-interview meeting that the person we were rejecting would be someone we'd hire if they were the 10th candidate we interviewed instead of the 2nd.
ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
I always took lower-paying jobs, and used them to learn and leverage my skills. It was fairly easy for me, as I was a high-school dropout with a GED. I never made any of the stratospheric salaries that I hear about, these days, but always had what I needed, and have been able to retire relatively early (55, as opposed to 35, but not too shabby).
solidist 5y ago
Well written. Well said. What a timeless post.
roland35 5y ago
I generally walk into these "career advice" posts skeptically but I found this advice pretty good overall! For me I try to look at my jobs as a way to build a portfolio of skills. When I feel like I am not learning anything (and probably stagnate in the long term) I try to move on.
andrew_eit 5y ago
I wish we as a culture/society, acknowledged the luck and timing factor more as a factor in career development. Idolizing people like Musk, Bezos and Gates, brilliant though they certainly are, only serves to put "just work hard/smart" blinkers on young career professionals, when sometimes, you really just need to introduce some chaos, roll the dice again, or divert effort into opening new pathways for yourself via networking or some such activity, instead of spending those extra hours on polishing technical skills. Case in point, I've had several internships as a student. My first one, I landed in a team that effectively did product management of a backend system, whilst my coursemate landed into a role assisting a high-up VP on innovation projects. Later, as a consultant, my first project was on some dying database system that needed to be kept alive a short while longer. In this case, I'd learned already, that you don't have to always accept your circumstances as they are. I politely complained to management that this is not what I was hired for and did not match my skills, and was transferred to a way more interesting and career rewarding project. I think the cornerstone of luck in career comes down to a few things: 1) Always Ask / Register interest - good things can't come your way if no one knows that you're looking 2) Keep an ear to the ground - so much information spreads via word of mouth. Being in chatrooms/groups or just having friendly relationships with various people in a company or sector, is like having sensors planted all around, alerting you to new opportunities 3) (polite) STUBBORNNESS - I can't emphasize this enough. Rejections, or unanswered job applications don't have to mean anything. After looking objectively at yourself and your attempt, to see if anything could have been improved, it pays you to then be stubborn and just keep trying. I recently got a brilliant job because my application was rejected from the 10th job posting of my favourite company, but a recruiter saw my application and forwarded it to another internal position that was based in another location and offered remotely. Everything clicked from there and I eventually got an offer. This happened because after the 9th rejection and I said "F*k it" and sent out another CV.
- vagrantJin 5y ago
  > This happened because after the 9th rejection and I said "Fk it" and sent out another CV. This is bold and I approve. Not many of us have this fck it mechanism built in. So we make excuses not to impose ourselves which is first class BS. My last agency gig was with an award winning agency with massive clients, I was interviewed with a director in the room. The meeting was scheduled for 20 minutes. It ended up lasting 2 hours.
doytch 5y ago
I really like that line, "advice is a form of nostalgia." I think I already have internalized it a bit but I'm gonna try and be more mindful of that when I give advice!
joss82 5y ago
I agree on all points except this one: > Don’t assume you’ll make this much money forever. There is a 90% chance that your salary will increase by 10% per year, on average, during your career. On average means that sometimes your company will find a lousy excuse not to give you a raise on a given year (you know if it's your fault or not. If in doubt: it's not your fault, they are just being cheap, and you are letting them get away with it). When this happens, you need to look elsewhere for a better paid job (which are also, on average, more interesting than worse paid ones). Given that you apply this advice, and barring any black swan event such as the dot-com bubble bursting, you should be able to earn more and more as time passes. Use this to your advantage!
- travisjungroth 5y ago
  > and barring any black swan event such as the dot-com bubble bursting Stuff like that is the point of the sentence you're replying to. And how can you be so confident about the salary growth over whole careers in software? If you laid 30 year careers end-to-end, the entire industry of software has had enough time for about 2.
  - dhosek 5y ago
    In the course of my career there's been the late 80s/early 90s recession, the dot-com bubble, 9/11, the great recession and 2020 to just pick a few of the highlights. After a while, you gotta think that maybe white swans aren't as much the norm as we've been led to believe.
- dasil003 5y ago
  Individuals aren’t averages and past performance is not a guarantee of future returns. There are a huge number of folks making high 6-figures or low 7-figures over the last decade due to tech stock growth. An entire generation of programmers has no idea what a buyers market for talent looks like. SAVE.
  - joss82 5y ago
    I disagree with this advice for young, healthy, not-having-kid-right-now people. To save means keeping money in a low interest rate account, which lowers your short term risk and increases your long-term risk (you are not enjoying the higher returns of high-risk, high-return, investments such as stocks over the long term). As young people, you should think long term. If you want to minimize short-term risk in your life, then please, by all mean, save! But be aware that there is no free lunch, and reducing risk right now will most probably reduce your opportunities in the long term. Please take into account that I am reasoning with averages and averages are just a massive simplification of real life. Adjust according to your own assessment of your context and situation. Don't follow random advice from strangers on the internet.
AJ1998 5y ago
“Specialization can be a financial trapdoor.” Can someone explain this advice for me? Is he trying to say to go for it or not?
- n0tme 5y ago
  I would say not. For example, I have been doing oracle database administration work for many years. Even though I'm also good with a lot of other technologies, like Linux, programming in many languages, other databases. But no one will consider me for jobs other than oracle DBA/developer for the salary I know have. So it is kind of a trap. And it is super hard to accept a junior job offer when you are approaching forties.
  - bordercases 5y ago
    I think the rule is that when a technology crosses over to being a company-specific platform that doesn't have wide lease in the markets you work in, then it's a bad idea to use if you want to evade the specialization trap. Like working on legacy codebases, the question isn't special knowledge of a technology, but whether or not the technology is in wide adoption and/or features high transfer to other technologies.
  - adrianmsmith 5y ago
    > But no one will consider me for jobs other than oracle DBA/developer for the salary I know have. So it is kind of a trap. There is definitely the other side as well. That is to say, let's say you have a database problem that you can't solve. You hire a consultant for three days to sort it out. Two people apply, one is laser focused on database performance optimization, lists lots of previous engagements solving similar problems. Second one is a "full stack developer" who asserts he can solve database performance problems as well. I reckon the first one, the specialist, can command a much higher daily rate than the second, the generalist. Even though the second might well be able to solve your problem. I think it's because it looks like the first one has been spending all their time solving problems similar to yours. Whereas the second has spent some of their time solving problems similar to yours, and the rest of their time doing other stuff. I'm not saying I like this state of affairs, I think generalists have a lot to offer, but this is how the market for consultants works I reckon. Consultancy is obviously not the same as salaried positions. But still, I think it's worth pointing out that being a specialist doesn't always have to be less lucrative, it can often be more.
fellowniusmonk 5y ago
"Be mindful of your risk tolerance" so true. Most people underestimate the amount of risk they can take on simply because they still have living parents and could move back home for awhile. As someone who has never had a safety net of any kind, use your safety net if you have it.
ulnarkressty 5y ago
I often use this quote by George Monbiot in my course as a caveat for my hard-working students: "If wealth was the inevitable result of hard work and enterprise, every woman in Africa would be a millionaire."
- WalterBright 5y ago
  Can't just work hard. Have to work smart, i.e. pick the right things to work on.

189 points by ZephyrBlu 5y ago

The last paragraph is what I actually find most useful: Finally, I suppose, I’d say that a surprising amount of a good career is about getting lucky and taking advantage of when you’ve gotten lucky. It’s clear to me that many of the best things that have happened to me were only partially in my control, if that.

bibabaloo 5y ago
Luck Surface Area (https://www.codusoperandi.com/posts/increasing-your-luck-surface-area https://www.codusoperandi.com/posts/increasing-your-luck-sur...) definitely applies to this, though - it's all about positioning yourself so that you have the opportunity to get lucky.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  As my father told me when I was younger, "It's amazing how much luckier well-prepared people are."
  - cableshaft 5y ago
    This is pretty obvious as a game designer in the board game industry. I'll see a publisher post on Facebook that they're accepting submissions and if I don't have something ready to show I can't take advantage of it. Happened to me just this morning, even, that I saw a publisher say they were accepting submissions I had some games that would be a good fit but I'm still trying to iron out a few things (and could have done that by now, but hadn't).
  - sethammons 5y ago
    I am a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it. --Thomas Jefferson
- Epenthesis 5y ago
  Eh, luck + effort beats luck, but luck by itself pretty often beats effort. I'm a good deal wealthier than some much harder working + smarter friends of mine because I lucked into joining some (moderately) successful startups.
- yobbo 5y ago
  False. Confronting bad luck with well-prepared diligent effort can be pretty bad, but you can't know if the luck is good/bad without effort. It's like handcuffing yourself to "Schrödinger's albatros". No, luck does not favour the prepared, but survivorship bias makes it seem so.
ehnto 5y ago
Looking back on previous opportunities I've had, I do regret not taking full advantage of them. It wasn't something I realized I should be cognizant of until later in my career though. With hindsight it's easy to see where I could have utilized each opportunity more. That is one of those 'small privileges' you get from an upbringing that teaches how to succeed I think, much like personal finance, travel, building strong relationships and so on. I know it's hard to get through to kids sometimes, but just having them keep in mind that they should be aware of these topics puts them miles ahead of others in terms of living a well lived life.
- germinalphrase 5y ago
  “… I do regret not taking full advantage of them” Knowing how to do so - or even what ‘full advantage’ includes - is almost certainly one of those ‘you don’t know what you don’t know’ things. Obvious later in your career, but invisible at the time.
totoglazer 5y ago
It’s definitely been my experience that within a job, there’s lucky projects, meetings, etc projects that can come your way. Great success has come from executing them well and being aware of when to push further. Of course, there are also (in retrospect doomed) unlucky projects too, which can set you back. Still, recognizing that you can do more, or less, with converting a lucky opportunity into lucky career growth is important. Especially for those of us who are of average skill.
- spockz 5y ago
  Instead of luck I would call it unscheduled. The after hour discussions with a colleague at the coffee machine or after a meeting. Or the moment you realise another colleague has the same issue and you fix it together.
BobbyJo 5y ago
This is the advice I hear most from successful people, but in varying formats, and it's the thing I think age teaches you the most: when opportunity comes knocking, answer the fucking door.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  And when money's growing on trees, pick it.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

robertwt7 5y ago

That's true, current job at big tech company happened not because I applied, but because the recruiter messaged me! Also I was looking for 20-30% raise, end up getting 2x. Amazing, mind blowing, luck, blessing, not sure what it is.

ethbr0 5y ago
Caveat: Know what you're getting into for the money. Usually, increased salary means a better, more interesting job. Otherwise, why would they pay you more? Occasionally, it means "This is how much we have to pay to attract someone to do the work." Realize both are possibilities, and be active in your interview to suss out which it is, and whether you'll be happy with that. (Said after a 50% salary bump landed me in a dumpster fire)
- myth_drannon 5y ago
  Many times is that we are going to use you and burn you out in 2 years, but the pay is x3 of your current TC.
  - ta988 5y ago
    Not worth it there is so much to loose burning out that money can't replace.
    - ethbr0 5y ago
      3x TC buys a bit over 2 years (time value of money) of doing whatever you want, for every year worked. Money can't replace now time. But it can certainly buy future time.
- robertwt7 5y ago
  Yeah.. I realise that, thanks for the reminder. However the company is growing in a very fast pace and my job right now is soo much better than the previous one. Well because previous one was in small agency, I was basically doing all the work. It includes devops, backend, frontend, only couple of devs. Now it is obviously much more focused with different teams for different purposes. Not sure how it will go but well, big tech company is pretty cool. I love my job now (meaning not burnt out yet lol)

mmcconnell1618 5y ago

I like the mention that luck/timing can be a factor. You can apply for a prestigious role where you would do extremely well but not get the position due to factors outside your control. An internal candidate was already selected, someone with just a little more experience also applied, you would be great but are missing one bullet point from the job criteria, the interviewer assigned to you does a poor job or is having a bad day. Try and maximize your luck by making sure you’re well prepared for interviews and apply for positions where your skills and interests really line up perfectly to the job description. But if it doesn’t work out, try not to take it personally, just reset and try again.

dhosek 5y ago
I can remember during the hiring process a couple jobs back when we were looking to expand our team saying during the post-interview meeting that the person we were rejecting would be someone we'd hire if they were the 10th candidate we interviewed instead of the 2nd.

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago

I always took lower-paying jobs, and used them to learn and leverage my skills. It was fairly easy for me, as I was a high-school dropout with a GED. I never made any of the stratospheric salaries that I hear about, these days, but always had what I needed, and have been able to retire relatively early (55, as opposed to 35, but not too shabby).

solidist 5y ago

Well written. Well said. What a timeless post.

roland35 5y ago

I generally walk into these "career advice" posts skeptically but I found this advice pretty good overall! For me I try to look at my jobs as a way to build a portfolio of skills. When I feel like I am not learning anything (and probably stagnate in the long term) I try to move on.

andrew_eit 5y ago

I wish we as a culture/society, acknowledged the luck and timing factor more as a factor in career development. Idolizing people like Musk, Bezos and Gates, brilliant though they certainly are, only serves to put "just work hard/smart" blinkers on young career professionals, when sometimes, you really just need to introduce some chaos, roll the dice again, or divert effort into opening new pathways for yourself via networking or some such activity, instead of spending those extra hours on polishing technical skills. Case in point, I've had several internships as a student. My first one, I landed in a team that effectively did product management of a backend system, whilst my coursemate landed into a role assisting a high-up VP on innovation projects. Later, as a consultant, my first project was on some dying database system that needed to be kept alive a short while longer. In this case, I'd learned already, that you don't have to always accept your circumstances as they are. I politely complained to management that this is not what I was hired for and did not match my skills, and was transferred to a way more interesting and career rewarding project. I think the cornerstone of luck in career comes down to a few things: 1) Always Ask / Register interest - good things can't come your way if no one knows that you're looking 2) Keep an ear to the ground - so much information spreads via word of mouth. Being in chatrooms/groups or just having friendly relationships with various people in a company or sector, is like having sensors planted all around, alerting you to new opportunities 3) (polite) STUBBORNNESS - I can't emphasize this enough. Rejections, or unanswered job applications don't have to mean anything. After looking objectively at yourself and your attempt, to see if anything could have been improved, it pays you to then be stubborn and just keep trying. I recently got a brilliant job because my application was rejected from the 10th job posting of my favourite company, but a recruiter saw my application and forwarded it to another internal position that was based in another location and offered remotely. Everything clicked from there and I eventually got an offer. This happened because after the 9th rejection and I said "F*k it" and sent out another CV.

vagrantJin 5y ago
> This happened because after the 9th rejection and I said "Fk it" and sent out another CV. This is bold and I approve. Not many of us have this fck it mechanism built in. So we make excuses not to impose ourselves which is first class BS. My last agency gig was with an award winning agency with massive clients, I was interviewed with a director in the room. The meeting was scheduled for 20 minutes. It ended up lasting 2 hours.

doytch 5y ago

I really like that line, "advice is a form of nostalgia." I think I already have internalized it a bit but I'm gonna try and be more mindful of that when I give advice!

joss82 5y ago

I agree on all points except this one: > Don’t assume you’ll make this much money forever. There is a 90% chance that your salary will increase by 10% per year, on average, during your career. On average means that sometimes your company will find a lousy excuse not to give you a raise on a given year (you know if it's your fault or not. If in doubt: it's not your fault, they are just being cheap, and you are letting them get away with it). When this happens, you need to look elsewhere for a better paid job (which are also, on average, more interesting than worse paid ones). Given that you apply this advice, and barring any black swan event such as the dot-com bubble bursting, you should be able to earn more and more as time passes. Use this to your advantage!

travisjungroth 5y ago
> and barring any black swan event such as the dot-com bubble bursting Stuff like that is the point of the sentence you're replying to. And how can you be so confident about the salary growth over whole careers in software? If you laid 30 year careers end-to-end, the entire industry of software has had enough time for about 2.
- dhosek 5y ago
  In the course of my career there's been the late 80s/early 90s recession, the dot-com bubble, 9/11, the great recession and 2020 to just pick a few of the highlights. After a while, you gotta think that maybe white swans aren't as much the norm as we've been led to believe.
dasil003 5y ago
Individuals aren’t averages and past performance is not a guarantee of future returns. There are a huge number of folks making high 6-figures or low 7-figures over the last decade due to tech stock growth. An entire generation of programmers has no idea what a buyers market for talent looks like. SAVE.
- joss82 5y ago
  I disagree with this advice for young, healthy, not-having-kid-right-now people. To save means keeping money in a low interest rate account, which lowers your short term risk and increases your long-term risk (you are not enjoying the higher returns of high-risk, high-return, investments such as stocks over the long term). As young people, you should think long term. If you want to minimize short-term risk in your life, then please, by all mean, save! But be aware that there is no free lunch, and reducing risk right now will most probably reduce your opportunities in the long term. Please take into account that I am reasoning with averages and averages are just a massive simplification of real life. Adjust according to your own assessment of your context and situation. Don't follow random advice from strangers on the internet.

AJ1998 5y ago

“Specialization can be a financial trapdoor.” Can someone explain this advice for me? Is he trying to say to go for it or not?

n0tme 5y ago
I would say not. For example, I have been doing oracle database administration work for many years. Even though I'm also good with a lot of other technologies, like Linux, programming in many languages, other databases. But no one will consider me for jobs other than oracle DBA/developer for the salary I know have. So it is kind of a trap. And it is super hard to accept a junior job offer when you are approaching forties.
- bordercases 5y ago
  I think the rule is that when a technology crosses over to being a company-specific platform that doesn't have wide lease in the markets you work in, then it's a bad idea to use if you want to evade the specialization trap. Like working on legacy codebases, the question isn't special knowledge of a technology, but whether or not the technology is in wide adoption and/or features high transfer to other technologies.
- adrianmsmith 5y ago
  > But no one will consider me for jobs other than oracle DBA/developer for the salary I know have. So it is kind of a trap. There is definitely the other side as well. That is to say, let's say you have a database problem that you can't solve. You hire a consultant for three days to sort it out. Two people apply, one is laser focused on database performance optimization, lists lots of previous engagements solving similar problems. Second one is a "full stack developer" who asserts he can solve database performance problems as well. I reckon the first one, the specialist, can command a much higher daily rate than the second, the generalist. Even though the second might well be able to solve your problem. I think it's because it looks like the first one has been spending all their time solving problems similar to yours. Whereas the second has spent some of their time solving problems similar to yours, and the rest of their time doing other stuff. I'm not saying I like this state of affairs, I think generalists have a lot to offer, but this is how the market for consultants works I reckon. Consultancy is obviously not the same as salaried positions. But still, I think it's worth pointing out that being a specialist doesn't always have to be less lucrative, it can often be more.

fellowniusmonk 5y ago

"Be mindful of your risk tolerance" so true. Most people underestimate the amount of risk they can take on simply because they still have living parents and could move back home for awhile. As someone who has never had a safety net of any kind, use your safety net if you have it.

ulnarkressty 5y ago

I often use this quote by George Monbiot in my course as a caveat for my hard-working students: "If wealth was the inevitable result of hard work and enterprise, every woman in Africa would be a millionaire."

WalterBright 5y ago
Can't just work hard. Have to work smart, i.e. pick the right things to work on.