4 ms·

Indeed. Although he would have abhorred their anti-science tactics. And he wrote extensively about the dangers of religious idiocy.

• dragonwriter 5y ago
  While Heinlein was no friend of the contemporary Left, he was very much not of a type with the modern pro-Trump types.
  • pyuser583 5y ago
    Heineken was very much a product of the 1950s: pro-science, pro-military, pro-patriotism, socially conservative (but open to change). He’s very much a produce a very different time, and that’s what makes him so interestin.
    • bawolff 5y ago
      Stranger in a strange land is socially conservative?? (and i don't just mean the pro-poly parts - that book was generally very influential to the hippie movement) Like there's a lot i disagree with about the views expressed in his novels, but social conservatism is not something i would accuse him of.
      • pyuser583 5y ago
        I haven’t got around to Stranger in a Strange Land - which is weird because that’s his most populist book. I’m thinking of The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. It had group marriages, but the marriage practices were ordained by custom and tradition. Not 20th century custom and tradition, but custom and tradition none the less.
        • bawolff 5y ago
          I think the moon is a harsh mistress is also the one that has the scene where the female lead wants to help on the farm, but her boobs are too "distracting" to the men folk, so she goes back to the kitchen instead. (Its been a while, i might be misrepresenting it) Which stood out to me as first and foremost being shockingly mysogynistic, but also i guess is pretty strongly pro traditional gender roles. At the same time though, the female lead is a political agitator/rebel, which is quite far removed from what i would consider traditional gender roles. In any case though, i think when people talk about someone being socially conservative, they mean more in the context of contemporary practise. Like moon is harsh mistress may have practises deemed "traditional" in universe to the characters, but as a work, its setup as a commentary on contemporary norms, so its still arguing for change as a work, even if its not doing so explicitly in the text by the characters.
          • GeekyBear 5y ago
            > I think the moon is a harsh mistress is also the one that has the scene where the female lead wants to help on the farm, but her boobs are too "distracting" to the men folk, so she goes back to the kitchen instead. (Its been a while, i might be misrepresenting it) There is no such scene in that book. In The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, any man who laid a finger on a woman uninvited would find himself on the wrong side of an airlock without a suit.
            • bawolff 5y ago
              I found the scene (pg 74 beginning of ch 10) > She was gorgeous. When she undulated down a corridor, boys followed in swarms. > She started to learn farming from Greg but Mum put stop to that. While she was big and smart and willing, our farm is mostly a male operation--and Greg and Hans were not only male members of our family distracted; she cost more farming man-hours than her industry equaled. So Wyoh went back to housework, then Sidris took her into beauty shop as helper. Its not precisely as i remember it, but i think its still strongly suggestive that some things are "woman's work" > In The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, any man who laid a finger on a woman uninvited would find himself on the wrong side of an airlock without a suit. I didn't mean distracting in the sense she was going to be sexually assualted, but on that score, despite what the characters claim in the book, the society depicted seems to have a very questionable definition of what consent means and ignores issues of coercion.
              • GeekyBear 5y ago
                > the society depicted seems to have a very questionable definition of what consent means and ignores issues of coercion. Sorry, but you seem to have very little notion of Heinlein's works, except for a burning desire to be offended by them, despite your unfamiliarity.
                • bawolff 5y ago
                  What makes you think i'm offended by it? Being unconvinced by the sexual politics of the novel's world and being offended are very different things. I read and enjoy many things i'm unconvinced by. Life would be really boring if i agreed with every idea i ever read. And well he's certainly not my favourite author i have enjoyed many of his novels and many of them contain interesting ideas. > despite your unfamiliarity You literally just told me a specific scene didn't exist, despite the fact it clearly does as evidenced by me finding it again and quoting it at you. Perhaps i'm not the one who needs to re-read this novel.
    • dragonwriter 5y ago
      > socially conservative Not in any stereotypical sense. Pigeonholes—whether of the 1950s or today—don’t capture him well.
    • aeturnum 5y ago
      I think it would be more accurate to say he believed in traditional gender roles quite strongly, but very little in the societal institutions of the 1950s. Some ideas he promotes in his writing: polyamory, group marriage, distrust of centralized authority.
      • bawolff 5y ago
        > traditional gender roles I don't think so - yes he has this weird trope where most of his female characters after meeting the main male char want to settle down and become a home maker for unclear reasons, but prior to that point in the book typically the female characters are very independent and competent in roles that are not traditional gender roles.
    • LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
      Grolsch!