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Those are really just issues with your government and their decision about what are the appropriate responses. It's not the unvaccinated that are hurting you he

Those are really just issues with your government and their decision about what are the appropriate responses. It's not the unvaccinated that are hurting you here, but the government response to them. If the unvaccinated are fine dying and not killing those who fear COVID, why have all the restrictions? Imagine if the government told you you can't wear a short skirt because a religious extremist might stab you. In what world does is this edict fair? And to make this comparison fair, this case, the religious extremist is also wearing a short skirt!

lossolo 5y ago
> Those are really just issues with your government and their decision about what are the appropriate responses. Well, mandatory vaccinations then should not be a problem too, right? they would also be only issues with your government. > If the unvaccinated are fine dying and not killing those who fear COVID, why have all the restrictions? Because none of them is fine with dying. I guarantee you that 99.9% of the unvaccinated people when confrontend with death will NOT say "oh, I've covid just let me die" which means hospitals will be overrun again = affecting vaccinated people in every way that I mentioned in my previous response. > Imagine if the government told you you can't wear a short skirt because a religious extremist might stab you. Ruling by the European Court of Human Rights set the precedent that obligatory vaccinations do not contravene the European Convention on Human Rights. I don't know about the rest of the world, I live in Europe. In your example government would do something ridiculously against common sense and Convention on Human Rights. Maybe you should find better analogy. EDIT: And let me ask you this as I see you have kids and you are unvaccinated, if you get sick and will be offered place and care in hospital that could save your life, will you choose to accept it? Or based on principles you will deny and let your kids live without father? I think we both know the answer to that question (unless you don't care about your kids). And now you are affecting vaccinated people by taking place in hospital/using hospital staff time that could be used for/on vaccinated people.
- amrcnimgrnt 5y ago
  "Ruling by the European Court of Human Rights ..." I care as much about the opinions of the ECHR (or any other court[1]) about as much as I care of the opinion of martians. They are not god-oracles of morality. I'm a thinking being I'll come to the conclusions myself. You're free to reproduce to me their arguments though. "Well, mandatory vaccinations then should not be a problem too, right? they would also be only issues with your government." What's your point? Obviously mandatory vaccinations are a problem between me and my sovereign. The problems you originally stated (unreasonable restrictions on your liberty given the realized effectiveness of the vaccines) were problems you have with your government, but you were putting them at the feet of the unvaccinated. Again, my original question was who are the unvaccinated hurting but themselves? "Because none of them is fine with dying. I guarantee you that 99.9% of the unvaccinated people when confronted with death will NOT say "oh, I've covid just let me die" " That's 1 in 1000 people. In my experience there is a huge variation of personalities among 1000 people [2] I'm curious what you assess your guarantee on. From my experience, given the group of people I like to befriend, you'd be lucky to get 80%. But anyway this comment reeks of paternalism. Smoking, motorcycling, sugar, they all have a huge potential to kill me. I'm guess I'll be sad if any one of them does. So what? " if you get sick and will be offered place and care in hospital that could save your life, will you choose to accept it? " First I haven't said why I'm not vaccinated. I've only eluded to an auto-immune disease that I waiting to speak to my specialist about. In fact the primary reasons why I'm not vaccinated are primarily moral. For example, I don't see why a healthy young adult should get a vaccine before an elderly South American just because he's from the North. I thought we'd agreed all lives are valuable, not just European ones. Second, given that my objections are primarily moral, I signed up for a vaccine trial to get a vaccine while addressing my moral concerns. Third, I've asked ppl not to be personal. I only mentioned that I also have kids because someone threw theirs in my face. But if you must know, a. I don't think (given the reasons why I'm not vaccinated and that I in fact volunteered to their trials) I have an obligation not to go to a hospital b. I don't see why an anti-vaxxer (I'm not one) should be denied hospital care. Do you believe, for example, that society shouldn't take care of those who, being able to, failed to save for retirement and blew their money on fun? How about smokers? Should they be denied cancer care? c. Based on principles, yes, I would (or hope to have the courage to) make my kids father-less. But this is hardly the situation (see point a and b). Why did you italicize "principles"? Are you nihilistically implying that principles are generally worthless in the face of material realities? Or are you implying that those who's principles are different than yours aren't worthy? d. "Unless you don't care about your kids" - I'd regret your comment if it weren't so silly, I invite you to think about it more deeply. My best friend is a firefighter who literally walks into burning houses to save people's lives. He risks making his three boys orphans every day he goes to work. He choose his dangerous career, he could have studied law. Are you implying that he doesn't deserve his kids? Malcom X, MLK, both had kids who did something greater than themselves and died for it. Are you saying they didn't love their kids? [3] [1] I don't mean that I'm not bound to my country's highest court's decisions - that's what living in society entails. However, the ECHR is not the fount of moral certainty. Also there is a latent submissiveness in the comment. An unelected bureaucracy says something and its like gospel? Only your actions are bound to the ECHR, not your conscience. [2] There might be observational bias - I pride myself in having relationships with as many walks of life as possible. [3] I not drawing comparison between those who don't take the vaccines and these titans of the 20th century. I just mean to illustrate how thoughtless the comment that leaving my kids fatherless for principles implies that I don't love them. In the end, though, your life journey is no one's but your own.

lossolo 5y ago

> Those are really just issues with your government and their decision about what are the appropriate responses. Well, mandatory vaccinations then should not be a problem too, right? they would also be only issues with your government. > If the unvaccinated are fine dying and not killing those who fear COVID, why have all the restrictions? Because none of them is fine with dying. I guarantee you that 99.9% of the unvaccinated people when confrontend with death will NOT say "oh, I've covid just let me die" which means hospitals will be overrun again = affecting vaccinated people in every way that I mentioned in my previous response. > Imagine if the government told you you can't wear a short skirt because a religious extremist might stab you. Ruling by the European Court of Human Rights set the precedent that obligatory vaccinations do not contravene the European Convention on Human Rights. I don't know about the rest of the world, I live in Europe. In your example government would do something ridiculously against common sense and Convention on Human Rights. Maybe you should find better analogy. EDIT: And let me ask you this as I see you have kids and you are unvaccinated, if you get sick and will be offered place and care in hospital that could save your life, will you choose to accept it? Or based on principles you will deny and let your kids live without father? I think we both know the answer to that question (unless you don't care about your kids). And now you are affecting vaccinated people by taking place in hospital/using hospital staff time that could be used for/on vaccinated people.

amrcnimgrnt 5y ago
"Ruling by the European Court of Human Rights ..." I care as much about the opinions of the ECHR (or any other court[1]) about as much as I care of the opinion of martians. They are not god-oracles of morality. I'm a thinking being I'll come to the conclusions myself. You're free to reproduce to me their arguments though. "Well, mandatory vaccinations then should not be a problem too, right? they would also be only issues with your government." What's your point? Obviously mandatory vaccinations are a problem between me and my sovereign. The problems you originally stated (unreasonable restrictions on your liberty given the realized effectiveness of the vaccines) were problems you have with your government, but you were putting them at the feet of the unvaccinated. Again, my original question was who are the unvaccinated hurting but themselves? "Because none of them is fine with dying. I guarantee you that 99.9% of the unvaccinated people when confronted with death will NOT say "oh, I've covid just let me die" " That's 1 in 1000 people. In my experience there is a huge variation of personalities among 1000 people [2] I'm curious what you assess your guarantee on. From my experience, given the group of people I like to befriend, you'd be lucky to get 80%. But anyway this comment reeks of paternalism. Smoking, motorcycling, sugar, they all have a huge potential to kill me. I'm guess I'll be sad if any one of them does. So what? " if you get sick and will be offered place and care in hospital that could save your life, will you choose to accept it? " First I haven't said why I'm not vaccinated. I've only eluded to an auto-immune disease that I waiting to speak to my specialist about. In fact the primary reasons why I'm not vaccinated are primarily moral. For example, I don't see why a healthy young adult should get a vaccine before an elderly South American just because he's from the North. I thought we'd agreed all lives are valuable, not just European ones. Second, given that my objections are primarily moral, I signed up for a vaccine trial to get a vaccine while addressing my moral concerns. Third, I've asked ppl not to be personal. I only mentioned that I also have kids because someone threw theirs in my face. But if you must know, a. I don't think (given the reasons why I'm not vaccinated and that I in fact volunteered to their trials) I have an obligation not to go to a hospital b. I don't see why an anti-vaxxer (I'm not one) should be denied hospital care. Do you believe, for example, that society shouldn't take care of those who, being able to, failed to save for retirement and blew their money on fun? How about smokers? Should they be denied cancer care? c. Based on principles, yes, I would (or hope to have the courage to) make my kids father-less. But this is hardly the situation (see point a and b). Why did you italicize "principles"? Are you nihilistically implying that principles are generally worthless in the face of material realities? Or are you implying that those who's principles are different than yours aren't worthy? d. "Unless you don't care about your kids" - I'd regret your comment if it weren't so silly, I invite you to think about it more deeply. My best friend is a firefighter who literally walks into burning houses to save people's lives. He risks making his three boys orphans every day he goes to work. He choose his dangerous career, he could have studied law. Are you implying that he doesn't deserve his kids? Malcom X, MLK, both had kids who did something greater than themselves and died for it. Are you saying they didn't love their kids? [3] [1] I don't mean that I'm not bound to my country's highest court's decisions - that's what living in society entails. However, the ECHR is not the fount of moral certainty. Also there is a latent submissiveness in the comment. An unelected bureaucracy says something and its like gospel? Only your actions are bound to the ECHR, not your conscience. [2] There might be observational bias - I pride myself in having relationships with as many walks of life as possible. [3] I not drawing comparison between those who don't take the vaccines and these titans of the 20th century. I just mean to illustrate how thoughtless the comment that leaving my kids fatherless for principles implies that I don't love them. In the end, though, your life journey is no one's but your own.