8 ms·

Anti-vaxxers are setting the stage for enormous profits for big pharma by creating the conditions for breeding new variants that will require more big pharma to

by abraae 5y ago

Anti-vaxxers are setting the stage for enormous profits for big pharma by creating the conditions for breeding new variants that will require more big pharma to combat them. I feel my grandkids will grow up in a world quite different from mine, where travel and experiences will be gated and limited by fear of contagious disease. That sucks and didn't need to happen. Thought experiment for anti-vaxxers - what if there was technology that could scan the virus particles coming into your body, and the ones coming out, and identify whether you - yes YOU - were the person responsible for creating a new variant? What if more technology could then detect that the dangerous variant that you incubated had wafted out of your nostrils and into the body of your elderly neighbor, killing her? With your alleged focus on self responsibility, would you take your punishment if you personally were responsible for thousands of deaths?

e40 5y ago
They’d probably pivot to say that’s the risk of a free life. Live free or die is the mantra of many of them. Of course it’s their life which is free, not the people they infect. I loved your hypothetical device.
- _-david-_ 5y ago
  Do you believe we should require the flu vaccine every year?
- swader999 5y ago
  Everyone is free to get the vaccine and the risk reward profile varies between ages. My body my choice but not for experimental vaccines? Fauci admitted yesterday infection and transmission are still possible in vaccinated. CDC renewed their indoor mask guidance because this is now evident. So if both groups can transmit, what does vax status matter personally to you? They aren't even a large enough size to overwhelm health care in most areas that have access to the vaccine.
notheretoo 5y ago
You’re right - this gated world didn’t need to happen. Sure would have been nice if American scenarists and eco health didn’t continue gain of function research after it was outlawed in the us. So uh what about this? https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/10/21-1427_article https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/10/21-1427_article If it’s true the vax causes antibody dependent enhancement and that YOU, as the individual who took the experimental therapy, is producing higher viral loads would you take your punishment if you where responsible for thousands of deaths? Also - what do we call people who are currently vaccinating their children yet refuse the experimental therapy? Clearly they’re not antivaxxers.
- mnowicki 5y ago
  I know most reasonable people disagree with this persons views, but why are they getting downvoted? They made a reasonable point and provided a source from the CDC. I'd much rather see a rebuttal than downvotes and no response. Definitely gave me something to think about - not about to become anti-vax or anything but not worth instantly writing off either. For me the bottom line is that the vaccine is proven to prevent a disease that's killing millions, and not getting it will literally translate to more deaths, but that doesn't mean I'm going to disregard opposing views - if I still disagree then it doesn't matter, and if I don't disagree then I'm glad I listened because it'd have to be something massively significant to make me change my mind. And I fully believe mocking or ignoring anyone who goes against the grain on vaccines is causing more 'real' anti-vaxxers and making the ones who are just wary about the Covid vaccine more extreme. I highly doubt anyone is being mocked into abandoning their beliefs on this.
  - swader999 5y ago
    I'm just happy we can post a plurality of ideas and get called out when they aren't valid here. Unfortunately this format is a dying one on many other platforms.
- swader999 5y ago
  I don't think this study does or can claim ADE. It's too bad they didn't report on blood based viral loads from titer samples. This observation is very interesting, albeit a small sample: "Attack rate was 0/6 among persons with a previous history of COVID-19"
programmarchy 5y ago
Leaky vaccines, like ones like the ones we have for COVID, also put evolutionary pressure on viruses. Anti-vaxxers are a convenient scapegoat, but the problem isn't that simple.
- mnowicki 5y ago
  again, I got the vaccine and I'm not anti-vax, but why are people getting downvoted for making valid points just because they aren't following the popular narrative. Did this website become reddit? You can acknowledge someone made a decent point and incorporate it into your own views while still getting & encouraging vaccines - engaging in honest discussion will do more to prevent creating more anti-vaxxers than ignoring any points that you don't want to deal with. Disregarding valid points only reinforces the narrative that everyone is brainwashed by big pharma and we can't trust vaccines or whatever the narrative is - almost starting to agree with them on the first point.
  - myko 5y ago
    I imagine folks are taking issue with calling anti-vaxxers a scapegoat when in reality the anti-vaxx ideology is the main driver of hospitalizations and deaths from COVID-19 in the USA today.
    - swader999 5y ago
      Comorbidities?
      - myko 5y ago
        Comorbidities aren't driving deaths/hospitalizations as much as vaccinated/unvaccinated are. Pre-vaccine availability they and age were the largest factors.
  - Overton-Window 5y ago
    Reddit was just a bellwether. Honest and curious discussion no longer exists. You either repeat party lines or are labeled a deplorable and should be banned from society. History shows us where this leads.
briefcomment 5y ago
What if we built a device that could trace a particle from your car's exhaust and could tell you if that particle lodged itself in someone's lung at just the right moment to cause a stroke? Or how about a device that could trace the germs from when you skipped washing your hands for at least 20 seconds with a lather because you were late to your 1 on 1 with your boss, which then caused your elderly neighbor to catch an infection? Or what about sensors that could tell if your inadvertent non-intentional stink eye at someone with social anxiety was the trigger to push their mental distress beyond the point of no return? Or how about that coworker who you promised would be a hero for taking the vax, who then convinced their son to get it, who then contracted a heart issue soon after? Would you take responsibility for that?
- abraae 5y ago
  Every one of your contrived examples has one thing in common - it's not anything to do with an infectious disease, which multiplies exponentially.
  - briefcomment 5y ago
    Your contrived example is by far the easiest one to tackle. Simply allow the people who are worried enough about this disease to keep topping up their vaccinations. The people who live in projects next to the freeway don't have it as easy unfortunately. I hope you displace the dangers of the particles your car emits on your commute by donating some portion of your income to a charity that helps people find independent housing.
- seanicus 5y ago
  You should write a whole whataboutism novel. It'd kill on facebook.
kook_throwaway 5y ago
If the vaccines prevent symptoms but not transmission, that sounds like a much better breeding ground for continued spread and mutation than folks that know they are sick and stay home because they are coughing or have a runny nose. The world isn't nearly as black and white as your 'punish the anti vaxxers' fanfic.
- _-david-_ 5y ago
  This is what is known as a leaky vaccine.
- mrtesthah 5y ago
  >...that sounds like a much better breeding ground for continued spread and mutation... Actually, that's already been studied. The virus mutates far less in breakthrough infections among vaccinated individuals than in infected individuals. COVID-19 vaccines dampen genomic diversity of SARS-CoV-2: Unvaccinated patients exhibit more antigenic mutational variance: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.01.21259833v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.01.21259833v... >...The societal benefit of mass vaccination may consequently go far beyond the widely reported mitigation of SARS-CoV-2 infection risk and amelioration of community transmission, to include stemming of rampant viral evolution.

by abraae 5y ago

e40 5y ago

They’d probably pivot to say that’s the risk of a free life. Live free or die is the mantra of many of them. Of course it’s their life which is free, not the people they infect. I loved your hypothetical device.

_-david-_ 5y ago
Do you believe we should require the flu vaccine every year?
swader999 5y ago
Everyone is free to get the vaccine and the risk reward profile varies between ages. My body my choice but not for experimental vaccines? Fauci admitted yesterday infection and transmission are still possible in vaccinated. CDC renewed their indoor mask guidance because this is now evident. So if both groups can transmit, what does vax status matter personally to you? They aren't even a large enough size to overwhelm health care in most areas that have access to the vaccine.

notheretoo 5y ago

You’re right - this gated world didn’t need to happen. Sure would have been nice if American scenarists and eco health didn’t continue gain of function research after it was outlawed in the us. So uh what about this? https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/10/21-1427_article https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/10/21-1427_article If it’s true the vax causes antibody dependent enhancement and that YOU, as the individual who took the experimental therapy, is producing higher viral loads would you take your punishment if you where responsible for thousands of deaths? Also - what do we call people who are currently vaccinating their children yet refuse the experimental therapy? Clearly they’re not antivaxxers.

mnowicki 5y ago
I know most reasonable people disagree with this persons views, but why are they getting downvoted? They made a reasonable point and provided a source from the CDC. I'd much rather see a rebuttal than downvotes and no response. Definitely gave me something to think about - not about to become anti-vax or anything but not worth instantly writing off either. For me the bottom line is that the vaccine is proven to prevent a disease that's killing millions, and not getting it will literally translate to more deaths, but that doesn't mean I'm going to disregard opposing views - if I still disagree then it doesn't matter, and if I don't disagree then I'm glad I listened because it'd have to be something massively significant to make me change my mind. And I fully believe mocking or ignoring anyone who goes against the grain on vaccines is causing more 'real' anti-vaxxers and making the ones who are just wary about the Covid vaccine more extreme. I highly doubt anyone is being mocked into abandoning their beliefs on this.
- swader999 5y ago
  I'm just happy we can post a plurality of ideas and get called out when they aren't valid here. Unfortunately this format is a dying one on many other platforms.
swader999 5y ago
I don't think this study does or can claim ADE. It's too bad they didn't report on blood based viral loads from titer samples. This observation is very interesting, albeit a small sample: "Attack rate was 0/6 among persons with a previous history of COVID-19"

programmarchy 5y ago

Leaky vaccines, like ones like the ones we have for COVID, also put evolutionary pressure on viruses. Anti-vaxxers are a convenient scapegoat, but the problem isn't that simple.

mnowicki 5y ago
again, I got the vaccine and I'm not anti-vax, but why are people getting downvoted for making valid points just because they aren't following the popular narrative. Did this website become reddit? You can acknowledge someone made a decent point and incorporate it into your own views while still getting & encouraging vaccines - engaging in honest discussion will do more to prevent creating more anti-vaxxers than ignoring any points that you don't want to deal with. Disregarding valid points only reinforces the narrative that everyone is brainwashed by big pharma and we can't trust vaccines or whatever the narrative is - almost starting to agree with them on the first point.
- myko 5y ago
  I imagine folks are taking issue with calling anti-vaxxers a scapegoat when in reality the anti-vaxx ideology is the main driver of hospitalizations and deaths from COVID-19 in the USA today.
  - swader999 5y ago
    Comorbidities?
    - myko 5y ago
      Comorbidities aren't driving deaths/hospitalizations as much as vaccinated/unvaccinated are. Pre-vaccine availability they and age were the largest factors.
- Overton-Window 5y ago
  Reddit was just a bellwether. Honest and curious discussion no longer exists. You either repeat party lines or are labeled a deplorable and should be banned from society. History shows us where this leads.

briefcomment 5y ago

What if we built a device that could trace a particle from your car's exhaust and could tell you if that particle lodged itself in someone's lung at just the right moment to cause a stroke? Or how about a device that could trace the germs from when you skipped washing your hands for at least 20 seconds with a lather because you were late to your 1 on 1 with your boss, which then caused your elderly neighbor to catch an infection? Or what about sensors that could tell if your inadvertent non-intentional stink eye at someone with social anxiety was the trigger to push their mental distress beyond the point of no return? Or how about that coworker who you promised would be a hero for taking the vax, who then convinced their son to get it, who then contracted a heart issue soon after? Would you take responsibility for that?

abraae 5y ago
Every one of your contrived examples has one thing in common - it's not anything to do with an infectious disease, which multiplies exponentially.
- briefcomment 5y ago
  Your contrived example is by far the easiest one to tackle. Simply allow the people who are worried enough about this disease to keep topping up their vaccinations. The people who live in projects next to the freeway don't have it as easy unfortunately. I hope you displace the dangers of the particles your car emits on your commute by donating some portion of your income to a charity that helps people find independent housing.
seanicus 5y ago
You should write a whole whataboutism novel. It'd kill on facebook.

kook_throwaway 5y ago

If the vaccines prevent symptoms but not transmission, that sounds like a much better breeding ground for continued spread and mutation than folks that know they are sick and stay home because they are coughing or have a runny nose. The world isn't nearly as black and white as your 'punish the anti vaxxers' fanfic.

_-david-_ 5y ago
This is what is known as a leaky vaccine.
mrtesthah 5y ago
>...that sounds like a much better breeding ground for continued spread and mutation... Actually, that's already been studied. The virus mutates far less in breakthrough infections among vaccinated individuals than in infected individuals. COVID-19 vaccines dampen genomic diversity of SARS-CoV-2: Unvaccinated patients exhibit more antigenic mutational variance: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.01.21259833v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.01.21259833v... >...The societal benefit of mass vaccination may consequently go far beyond the widely reported mitigation of SARS-CoV-2 infection risk and amelioration of community transmission, to include stemming of rampant viral evolution.