4 ms·

Not as interesting as this smoking gun from Andy Rubin. This is pretty damning evidence of willful infringement on the part of Google. One of the most interes

Not as interesting as this smoking gun from Andy Rubin. This is pretty damning evidence of willful infringement on the part of Google. One of the most interesting passages in today's order quotes from an October 2005 email by Google's Android boss Andy Rubin back in 2005: "If Sun doesn't want to work with us, we have two options: 1) Abandon our work and adopt MSFT CLR VM and C# language - or - 2) Do Java anyway and defend our decision, perhaps making enemies along the way" If a jury sees that statement (and if there is a trial, then the jury will see it for sure), Google has a very serious problem. And "very serious" may be an understatement. Moreover, a statement like that showing up in publicly accessible court documents now may cause significant concern among many of Google's Android partners (including, but not limited to, device makers). http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/07/judge-orders-overhaul-of-oracles.html http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/07/judge-orders-overhau...

haberman 15y ago
Florian Mueller, is that you? You copy/pasted this comment from your identical comment 14 hours ago, which was rebutted and downvoted into oblivion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2797179 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2797179
- PotatoChips 15y ago
  what rebuttal? just a bunch of comments from people who are in denial of the fact that Google willingly and knowingly infringed on Java patents when they were developing Android. Google already indicated that they are willing to pay and settle this thing with Oracle.
  - shareme 15y ago
    ahem dude.. 99.9999% of all US patents suits are never brought to trial..it was not settlement offer but a debate on stay two different things ..could not MS find better mouthpieces?
    - rbanffy 15y ago
      > could not MS find better mouthpieces? They need knowledgeable people with low moral standards. That's hard to find.
  - pyre 15y ago
    > what rebuttal? just a bunch of comments from people who are > in denial of the fact that Google willingly and knowingly > infringed on Java patents when they were developing Android At this point, you've revealed yourself to be a troll, but I'll bite because I'm bored. All of those comments were pointing out the same things that people are pointing out here. The phrases "defend our actions" and "make enemies" within the context of Java does not logically (nor legally) imply willful and deliberate patent infringements against Java patents. Note that nothing in this 'rebuttal' says that Google didn't "willingly and knowingly" infringe Java patents. The argument is that you have not presented anything that proves that they did.
Natsu 15y ago
I don't see anything in that statement which admits to infringement, willful or otherwise. You may be reading a bit too far between the lines on this one. Note that the alternative was to abandon "our work." That pretty solidly indicates that they believe that what they've made is their own. But that's what I hate about software patents: it forces people to abandon their own work because someone thought of something that, when phrased in the broadest language legally possible, makes it sound like they've though of someone else's ideas, even when they've never actually created anything of the sort.
- PotatoChips 15y ago
  Andy's email, together with the fact that Google executives discussed obtaining a license for Java just weeks before Oracle filed a multibillion-dollar lawsuit is pretty damning. "documenting the discussion could make Google look bad to a jury, which might conclude that Google knew it was using Oracle's technology without permission." "I'm not saying there was willful infringement, but how are you going to answer this?" demanded U.S. District Judge William Alsup, as he grilled Google attorneys during a hearing in which he repeatedly probed for weakness in the arguments of both sides." At one point, Holtzman directed Alsup to an internal email sent to Google Android chief Andy Rubin from a Google engineer. Under the direction of Google co-founders Page and Sergey Brin, Google engineers explored alternatives to using Java technology, but ultimately concluded they "all suck," the email said. ========> Google should license Java technology, according to the email, which Alsup read aloud in court. SOURCES: http://www.siliconvalley.com/companies/ci_18525231?source=pkg http://www.siliconvalley.com/companies/ci_18525231?source=pk... http://newsandinsight.thomsonreuters.com/California/News/2011/07_-_July/Federal_judge_criticizes_Google_and_Oracle_at_hearing/ http://newsandinsight.thomsonreuters.com/California/News/201...
  - Natsu 15y ago
    That makes more sense, but that doesn't rule out the idea that they believed they had a legal right to do this in spite of Oracle's position. It's clear that they knew they'd be in hot water with Oracle, so if anything, I would say that they believed that they would be vindicated in court. In the end, I guess it boils down to whether or not one believes that they infringe on any valid patents or copyrights. I'm not sure that I do, but I have a hard time seeing any software patents as valid.
Confusion 15y ago
That quote is not damning in any way. It is completely normal for a company to discuss the options of: 1) Licensing technology or 2) Not licensing technology and working around the barriers the unlicensed patents pose, either technically or legally. Both are completely valid ways of doing business.
shareme 15y ago
He forgot that the Sun and Google talks were about not patents but on joint venture to build out android..

haberman 15y ago

Florian Mueller, is that you? You copy/pasted this comment from your identical comment 14 hours ago, which was rebutted and downvoted into oblivion: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2797179 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2797179

PotatoChips 15y ago
what rebuttal? just a bunch of comments from people who are in denial of the fact that Google willingly and knowingly infringed on Java patents when they were developing Android. Google already indicated that they are willing to pay and settle this thing with Oracle.
- shareme 15y ago
  ahem dude.. 99.9999% of all US patents suits are never brought to trial..it was not settlement offer but a debate on stay two different things ..could not MS find better mouthpieces?
  - rbanffy 15y ago
    > could not MS find better mouthpieces? They need knowledgeable people with low moral standards. That's hard to find.
- pyre 15y ago
  > what rebuttal? just a bunch of comments from people who are > in denial of the fact that Google willingly and knowingly > infringed on Java patents when they were developing Android At this point, you've revealed yourself to be a troll, but I'll bite because I'm bored. All of those comments were pointing out the same things that people are pointing out here. The phrases "defend our actions" and "make enemies" within the context of Java does not logically (nor legally) imply willful and deliberate patent infringements against Java patents. Note that nothing in this 'rebuttal' says that Google didn't "willingly and knowingly" infringe Java patents. The argument is that you have not presented anything that proves that they did.

Natsu 15y ago

I don't see anything in that statement which admits to infringement, willful or otherwise. You may be reading a bit too far between the lines on this one. Note that the alternative was to abandon "our work." That pretty solidly indicates that they believe that what they've made is their own. But that's what I hate about software patents: it forces people to abandon their own work because someone thought of something that, when phrased in the broadest language legally possible, makes it sound like they've though of someone else's ideas, even when they've never actually created anything of the sort.

PotatoChips 15y ago
Andy's email, together with the fact that Google executives discussed obtaining a license for Java just weeks before Oracle filed a multibillion-dollar lawsuit is pretty damning. "documenting the discussion could make Google look bad to a jury, which might conclude that Google knew it was using Oracle's technology without permission." "I'm not saying there was willful infringement, but how are you going to answer this?" demanded U.S. District Judge William Alsup, as he grilled Google attorneys during a hearing in which he repeatedly probed for weakness in the arguments of both sides." At one point, Holtzman directed Alsup to an internal email sent to Google Android chief Andy Rubin from a Google engineer. Under the direction of Google co-founders Page and Sergey Brin, Google engineers explored alternatives to using Java technology, but ultimately concluded they "all suck," the email said. ========> Google should license Java technology, according to the email, which Alsup read aloud in court. SOURCES: http://www.siliconvalley.com/companies/ci_18525231?source=pkg http://www.siliconvalley.com/companies/ci_18525231?source=pk... http://newsandinsight.thomsonreuters.com/California/News/2011/07_-_July/Federal_judge_criticizes_Google_and_Oracle_at_hearing/ http://newsandinsight.thomsonreuters.com/California/News/201...
- Natsu 15y ago
  That makes more sense, but that doesn't rule out the idea that they believed they had a legal right to do this in spite of Oracle's position. It's clear that they knew they'd be in hot water with Oracle, so if anything, I would say that they believed that they would be vindicated in court. In the end, I guess it boils down to whether or not one believes that they infringe on any valid patents or copyrights. I'm not sure that I do, but I have a hard time seeing any software patents as valid.

Confusion 15y ago

That quote is not damning in any way. It is completely normal for a company to discuss the options of: 1) Licensing technology or 2) Not licensing technology and working around the barriers the unlicensed patents pose, either technically or legally. Both are completely valid ways of doing business.

shareme 15y ago

He forgot that the Sun and Google talks were about not patents but on joint venture to build out android..