5 ms·

> > I think the concern is delivery mechanisms that have never, or only rarely, been used before. > What is this concern based on? That it's new or rarely used

by tome 5y ago

> > I think the concern is delivery mechanisms that have never, or only rarely, been used before. > What is this concern based on? That it's new or rarely used? Why would you have prior concern one way or the other? I didn't originate this conversation so I can't speak for the original commenter, but it seems to me it's worth pausing for thought when a billion people are due to receive a medical intervention of a type that has never been used before. > This runs into the same problem. And it's even worse because you have a known risk (COVID-19) and a future, unknown and unquantifiable risk with no prior reason to believe such a risk exists and you're opting to defend against that risk instead. I'm not opting to defend against that risk but nor do I think the calculus is as obvious as you are making out. On the one hand I am very, very glad the vaccines are available because they seem to be significantly suppressing infection numbers and keeping people out of hospital. On the other hand I believe that individuals should not be coerced by their employer into receiving a vaccine. > Sure, but to be fair not a single one of these people ever questioned any other vaccine delivery mechanism they were getting. Questioning this stuff is new, and it's a deliberate disinformation campaign. Which people? People have been questioning the safety of vaccine delivery mechanisms for at least 20 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine#False_claims_about_autism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine#False_claims_about...

ericmay 5y ago
> I didn't originate this conversation so I can't speak for the original commenter, but it seems to me it's worth pausing for thought when a billion people are due to receive a medical intervention of a type that has never been used before. Sure... but what makes you think the scientific and medical community haven't done the equivalent of this? > I'm not opting to defend against that risk but nor do I think the calculus is as obvious as you are making out. Then how would you describe the calculus? I know what COVID-19 infection numbers and statistics are, at least within some +-% differential. But I have no knowledge or evidence of any future problem with the COVID-19 vaccine. Why would I accept a known and severe risk against an unknown risk with unknown severity? So, could you expand on the less obvious aspects of the calculus here? If there's knew information I want to know. > On the one hand I am very, very glad the vaccines are available because they seem to be significantly suppressing infection numbers and keeping people out of hospital. On the other hand I believe that individuals should not be coerced by their employer into receiving a vaccine. I think it's a tough subject, but just as someone shouldn't be coerced by their employer into receiving a vaccine, I'm not sure others should be coerced into having to share space with someone who is willingly unvaccinated from a contagious disease. How do you reconcile that? > Which people? Take the total number of people who are now anti-vax, subtract those who became anti-vax before 2020. That remaining population. > People have been questioning the safety of vaccine delivery mechanisms for at least 20 years. And what has come of it? Billions of people around the world have received vaccines, untold lives have been saved, we've eliminated insane diseases like SmallPox and Polio... but now I'm supposed to side with the anti-vax people because why exactly? What did the medical and science community do to lose my trust? I guess you could argue the funding of gain of function research in Wuhan (where the virus almost certainly originated from), but that's not going to undo the cumulative history of medicine that has been wildly successful for me.
- tome 5y ago
  I'm not sure how to respond. Did you miss the part where I said I have been vaccinated? I'm not trying to persuade anyone to go unvaccinated! I'm just expressing surprise that a lot of people either (a) don't know that the mechanisms for all the popular vaccines available in the west are completely new or (b) are completely unconcerned about the risks of giving such new medical interventions to a billion people within the space of months. Given the grave situation we find ourselves in it seems to me that mass vaccination is the best option for humanity and for individuals. However, there is an unquantifiable downside risk as a result of lack of knowledge. >I'm not sure others should be coerced into having to share space with someone who is willingly unvaccinated from a contagious disease. How do you reconcile that? Well, we have been defending successfully against that risk for about 18 months. > > People have been questioning the safety of vaccine delivery mechanisms for at least 20 years. > And what has come of it? ... I was just a bit surprised because you seemed to be suggesting that vaccine skepticism was a new phenomenon.
  - ericmay 5y ago
    > However, there is an unquantifiable downside risk as a result of lack of knowledge. ok... but then you (not you specifically) have to weigh that against the known and real risk of COVID-19. Hundreds of thousands dead, "long COVID", etc. versus an unknown and un-hypothesized risk with unknown bad outcomes. Like articulate a possible future bad outcome that is realistic due to these vaccines. Can you (or anyone) do that? Like do you think in 20 years people will start wilting away b/c the took the COVID-19 vaccine? > Well, we have been defending successfully against that risk for about 18 months. I... wouldn't call our response to COVID-19 all that successful. How many in the US and UK alone have died? a million? > I was just a bit surprised because you seemed to be suggesting that vaccine skepticism was a new phenomenon. I'm specifically suggesting that there are loads of new "vaccine skeptics" that are only vaccine skeptics starting in 2020 because they've received enough politicization and disinformation to do so. They weren't skeptics when they were getting annual flu shots or shots for measles or w/e and had no issue with vaccines or the scientific community before.
- azangru 5y ago

by tome 5y ago

ericmay 5y ago

> I didn't originate this conversation so I can't speak for the original commenter, but it seems to me it's worth pausing for thought when a billion people are due to receive a medical intervention of a type that has never been used before. Sure... but what makes you think the scientific and medical community haven't done the equivalent of this? > I'm not opting to defend against that risk but nor do I think the calculus is as obvious as you are making out. Then how would you describe the calculus? I know what COVID-19 infection numbers and statistics are, at least within some +-% differential. But I have no knowledge or evidence of any future problem with the COVID-19 vaccine. Why would I accept a known and severe risk against an unknown risk with unknown severity? So, could you expand on the less obvious aspects of the calculus here? If there's knew information I want to know. > On the one hand I am very, very glad the vaccines are available because they seem to be significantly suppressing infection numbers and keeping people out of hospital. On the other hand I believe that individuals should not be coerced by their employer into receiving a vaccine. I think it's a tough subject, but just as someone shouldn't be coerced by their employer into receiving a vaccine, I'm not sure others should be coerced into having to share space with someone who is willingly unvaccinated from a contagious disease. How do you reconcile that? > Which people? Take the total number of people who are now anti-vax, subtract those who became anti-vax before 2020. That remaining population. > People have been questioning the safety of vaccine delivery mechanisms for at least 20 years. And what has come of it? Billions of people around the world have received vaccines, untold lives have been saved, we've eliminated insane diseases like SmallPox and Polio... but now I'm supposed to side with the anti-vax people because why exactly? What did the medical and science community do to lose my trust? I guess you could argue the funding of gain of function research in Wuhan (where the virus almost certainly originated from), but that's not going to undo the cumulative history of medicine that has been wildly successful for me.

tome 5y ago
I'm not sure how to respond. Did you miss the part where I said I have been vaccinated? I'm not trying to persuade anyone to go unvaccinated! I'm just expressing surprise that a lot of people either (a) don't know that the mechanisms for all the popular vaccines available in the west are completely new or (b) are completely unconcerned about the risks of giving such new medical interventions to a billion people within the space of months. Given the grave situation we find ourselves in it seems to me that mass vaccination is the best option for humanity and for individuals. However, there is an unquantifiable downside risk as a result of lack of knowledge. >I'm not sure others should be coerced into having to share space with someone who is willingly unvaccinated from a contagious disease. How do you reconcile that? Well, we have been defending successfully against that risk for about 18 months. > > People have been questioning the safety of vaccine delivery mechanisms for at least 20 years. > And what has come of it? ... I was just a bit surprised because you seemed to be suggesting that vaccine skepticism was a new phenomenon.
- ericmay 5y ago
  > However, there is an unquantifiable downside risk as a result of lack of knowledge. ok... but then you (not you specifically) have to weigh that against the known and real risk of COVID-19. Hundreds of thousands dead, "long COVID", etc. versus an unknown and un-hypothesized risk with unknown bad outcomes. Like articulate a possible future bad outcome that is realistic due to these vaccines. Can you (or anyone) do that? Like do you think in 20 years people will start wilting away b/c the took the COVID-19 vaccine? > Well, we have been defending successfully against that risk for about 18 months. I... wouldn't call our response to COVID-19 all that successful. How many in the US and UK alone have died? a million? > I was just a bit surprised because you seemed to be suggesting that vaccine skepticism was a new phenomenon. I'm specifically suggesting that there are loads of new "vaccine skeptics" that are only vaccine skeptics starting in 2020 because they've received enough politicization and disinformation to do so. They weren't skeptics when they were getting annual flu shots or shots for measles or w/e and had no issue with vaccines or the scientific community before.
azangru 5y ago