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Contaminated soils don't contain elemental lead. The dominant form is lead oxide, one of the two common additives in lead paint (along with the carbonate) and

Contaminated soils don't contain elemental lead. The dominant form is lead oxide, one of the two common additives in lead paint (along with the carbonate) and also the end point of the combustion of TEL in fuel. Lead from lead oxide is easily absorbed orally from soil, paint chips, and household dust, and it's also a serious inhalation hazard. > sweet tasting lead paint chips What makes you think lead paint tastes sweet? > Lead is not mobile in typical soil or water environments Which is exactly the reason lead-contaminated soils are such a long-lasting hazard. It's the reason little kids playing in the dirt around old houses can be poisoned decades after contamination was laid down. For example, here in Denver entire urban neighborhoods were built on the site of a smelter that was demolished a hundred years ago, and the contamination is still largely unchanged. Remediation requires completely replacing the top several feet of soil. > There is naturally occurring trace lead in most soils - it’s a somewhat common element. Significant deposits of lead in surface soil are rare, and are limited to sites with unique geology. The vast majority of distributed lead in surface soils is of human origin.

sokoloff 5y ago
> What makes you think lead paint tastes sweet? Lead acetate has a sweet taste. Lead paint flakes/dust contain lead acetate. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/sugar-of-lead-a-deadly-sweetener-89984487/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/sugar-of-lead-a-...
- nate_meurer 5y ago
  What makes you think lead acetate was ever used in paint?
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    Research. https://healthyindoors.com/2018/11/lead-paint-sweet-aint https://healthyindoors.com/2018/11/lead-paint-sweet-aint
    - outworlder 5y ago
      Let's stop entertaining the sealion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
      - nate_meurer 5y ago
        I asked a simple and genuine question in the midst of my longer comments. If you think that qualifies as sealioning, then I imagine no discussion forum is a safe place for you. If you have anything to contribute, I'd actually like to hear it.
    - nate_meurer 5y ago
      Did you not actually read that article? The title is "Lead Paint, Sweet It Ain't", and its entire purpose is to debunk the myth of sweet tasting paint. Even there, the claims that lead paint sometimes contained small amounts of lead acetate are unsupported. It's true that heavy metal salts have a long history of use as siccatives in oil-based finishes, but the vast majority of lead-based driers were the oxides, because they could serve double duty as pigments. And even if lead acetate were to be used in paint, it wouldn't taste sweet, because it would be bound in the polymer matrix (as your article points out), and there wouldn't be enough of it anyway. Look at the SDS for any oil based finish, and you'll see that metallic diers are added in just tiny amounts. Regardless, I have never seen historical or scientific evidence that suggests lead acetate was used in any significant amount in paint. If you know of such evidence, I would genuinely love to see it.
wahern 5y ago
> Remediation requires completely replacing the top several feet of soil. I think the normal recommendation for backyards is several inches, not feet, of soil. But there's also an alternative: fish bones. They bind the lead so it can't be absorbed well even if ingested. You can buy them by the ton from PIMS NW, Inc: http://www.pimsnw.com/ http://www.pimsnw.com/ But you need to spread quite alot of fish bones. As cheap as they are, it's still not very cost effective, especially considering that, excepting extreme industrial contamination, lead-contaminated soil usually goes to a non-hazardous dump site or used for backfill, and rarely to a much more expensive hazardous dump. It's cheaper to haul the dirt away than to haul in tons of fish bones.
- nate_meurer 5y ago
  The more common chemical abatement technique is amendment with lime. Maybe fish bones are cheaper in some coastal locations, I don't know, but it's interesting. There's also some evidence that calcium supplements given concurrently with lead exposure could reduce the absorption into sensitive tissues (particularly brain and bones), but I don't know how strong the evidence is. EDIT: The depth of excavation is determined based on the expected use of the land, and how deep the contamination extends based on soil sampling. Anecdotally, I know that excavation of residential areas at the smelter superfund site in Pueblo (south of me) extended to two feet around the houses.
lostlogin 5y ago
> What makes you think lead paint tastes sweet? Every time lead paint is mentioned it seems to state the taste. It’s in the Wiki as well. Lead acetate seems to be the sweet compound, and it even gets called sugar of lead. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_paint https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_paint https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_acetate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_acetate
- nate_meurer 5y ago
  That sentence in the wikipedia article doesn't cite any sources to support the claim that lead acetate was used in paint. It only links to the article for lead acetate. It's unfortunate but common on wikipedia, and in this case serves only to perpetuate the myth of "sweet paint chips".
  - lostlogin 5y ago
    > serves only to perpetuate the myth of "sweet paint chips". I wasn’t aware of it being a myth and there are reference to sweet lead paint every time I read about lead. I believe it was in the white paint and an older painter has assured me it gives an excellent finish that lasts well without yellowing. It seems the Romans even used it as a sweetener. Why do you think it isn’t sweet and lead acetate wasn’t in paint? https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/lead-acetate https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sci... https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-ancient-traditions/savoring-danger-sugar-lead-was-used-flavor-roman-food-and-wine-toxic-021771 https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-ancient-traditions/s...
    - nate_meurer 5y ago
      See my earlier response to @sokoloff, who helpfully posted an article debunking the myth of sweet paint chips. Lead acetate is sweet, no doubt, and it is possible that it was used in small quantities as a drier in old oil-based finishes, however I've seen no actual evidence of this, and even if it was, the quantities are unlikely to be sufficient to be detectable at all, especially years later. When we talk about lead paint, the lead is in the form of pigments such as lead oxides, carbonate, or chromate. These pigments constituted a large propertion of the paint, and it's these pigments that present the lead poisoning hazard. Lead acetate is not a pigment-- it was only ever used as a drier-- and it would make absolutely no sense to add it in any significant quantity to pigmented paint, because the pigments are themselves very effective driers. And indeed, I've never seen evidence that lead acetate was ever used in any significant quantities in paint. The legend about the Romans using it to sweeten drinks and sauces is historically verifiable.
lazide 5y ago
Correct - and lead oxide is not tetra ethyl lead, or the nasty lead salts. It isn’t great, but it is also not that much worse than elemental lead from a mobility or toxicity perspective. And I noted the exact hazard for breathing dusts and vapors, so thanks for repeating it? It’s also a bit disingenuous to use someone LITERALLY BURNING AND VAPORIZING MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF LEAD, at a huge and industrial scale for a very long time time, as a safety comparison. Of course that is going to make a giant mess. Whoever let them build houses there without it being remediated should be in jail. It doesn’t change the fact that you essentially have to play every day in a literal superfund site with probably 1000x or more the worrisome levels before it really becomes a serious problem? Lead isn’t a thing you want to eat or play in. It will mess you up. But let’s not pretend that a little piston plane is going to poison LA in any measurable way because it is flying over it while burning leaded gas. And thanks for the lead paint chips not being sweet! I personally never tried, so good to know it’s not true
- nate_meurer 5y ago
  > Correct - and lead oxide is not tetra ethyl lead, or the nasty lead salts. It isn’t great, but it is also not that much worse than elemental lead from a mobility or toxicity perspective. No, the dominant lead compounds found in soils are much more hazardous than elemental lead. They are much more easily absorbed orally, and elemental lead isn't a realistic inhalation hazard unless you work in an actual smelter. > It’s also a bit disingenuous to use someone LITERALLY BURNING AND VAPORIZING MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF LEAD, at a huge and industrial scale for a very long time time, as a safety comparison. Of course that is going to make a giant mess. Whoever let them build houses there without it being remediated should be in jail. The neighborhood is around a hundred years old. The smelter operated in the late 1800's. Who do you propose should be jailed? > you essentially have to play every day in a literal superfund site with probably 1000x or more the worrisome levels before it really becomes a serious problem? No, the vast majority of lead poisoning in kids happens in ordinary households. The most common sources of lead in thee poisoning cases are paint dust and chips, dust from vinyl miniblinds, leaded glazes in dishes, stuff like that.
  - lazide 5y ago

sokoloff 5y ago

> What makes you think lead paint tastes sweet? Lead acetate has a sweet taste. Lead paint flakes/dust contain lead acetate. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/sugar-of-lead-a-deadly-sweetener-89984487/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/sugar-of-lead-a-...

nate_meurer 5y ago
What makes you think lead acetate was ever used in paint?
- sokoloff 5y ago
  Research. https://healthyindoors.com/2018/11/lead-paint-sweet-aint https://healthyindoors.com/2018/11/lead-paint-sweet-aint
  - outworlder 5y ago
    Let's stop entertaining the sealion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
    - nate_meurer 5y ago
      I asked a simple and genuine question in the midst of my longer comments. If you think that qualifies as sealioning, then I imagine no discussion forum is a safe place for you. If you have anything to contribute, I'd actually like to hear it.
  - nate_meurer 5y ago
    Did you not actually read that article? The title is "Lead Paint, Sweet It Ain't", and its entire purpose is to debunk the myth of sweet tasting paint. Even there, the claims that lead paint sometimes contained small amounts of lead acetate are unsupported. It's true that heavy metal salts have a long history of use as siccatives in oil-based finishes, but the vast majority of lead-based driers were the oxides, because they could serve double duty as pigments. And even if lead acetate were to be used in paint, it wouldn't taste sweet, because it would be bound in the polymer matrix (as your article points out), and there wouldn't be enough of it anyway. Look at the SDS for any oil based finish, and you'll see that metallic diers are added in just tiny amounts. Regardless, I have never seen historical or scientific evidence that suggests lead acetate was used in any significant amount in paint. If you know of such evidence, I would genuinely love to see it.

wahern 5y ago

> Remediation requires completely replacing the top several feet of soil. I think the normal recommendation for backyards is several inches, not feet, of soil. But there's also an alternative: fish bones. They bind the lead so it can't be absorbed well even if ingested. You can buy them by the ton from PIMS NW, Inc: http://www.pimsnw.com/ http://www.pimsnw.com/ But you need to spread quite alot of fish bones. As cheap as they are, it's still not very cost effective, especially considering that, excepting extreme industrial contamination, lead-contaminated soil usually goes to a non-hazardous dump site or used for backfill, and rarely to a much more expensive hazardous dump. It's cheaper to haul the dirt away than to haul in tons of fish bones.

nate_meurer 5y ago
The more common chemical abatement technique is amendment with lime. Maybe fish bones are cheaper in some coastal locations, I don't know, but it's interesting. There's also some evidence that calcium supplements given concurrently with lead exposure could reduce the absorption into sensitive tissues (particularly brain and bones), but I don't know how strong the evidence is. EDIT: The depth of excavation is determined based on the expected use of the land, and how deep the contamination extends based on soil sampling. Anecdotally, I know that excavation of residential areas at the smelter superfund site in Pueblo (south of me) extended to two feet around the houses.

lostlogin 5y ago

> What makes you think lead paint tastes sweet? Every time lead paint is mentioned it seems to state the taste. It’s in the Wiki as well. Lead acetate seems to be the sweet compound, and it even gets called sugar of lead. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_paint https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_paint https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_acetate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_acetate

nate_meurer 5y ago
That sentence in the wikipedia article doesn't cite any sources to support the claim that lead acetate was used in paint. It only links to the article for lead acetate. It's unfortunate but common on wikipedia, and in this case serves only to perpetuate the myth of "sweet paint chips".
- lostlogin 5y ago
  > serves only to perpetuate the myth of "sweet paint chips". I wasn’t aware of it being a myth and there are reference to sweet lead paint every time I read about lead. I believe it was in the white paint and an older painter has assured me it gives an excellent finish that lasts well without yellowing. It seems the Romans even used it as a sweetener. Why do you think it isn’t sweet and lead acetate wasn’t in paint? https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/lead-acetate https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sci... https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-ancient-traditions/savoring-danger-sugar-lead-was-used-flavor-roman-food-and-wine-toxic-021771 https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-ancient-traditions/s...
  - nate_meurer 5y ago
    See my earlier response to @sokoloff, who helpfully posted an article debunking the myth of sweet paint chips. Lead acetate is sweet, no doubt, and it is possible that it was used in small quantities as a drier in old oil-based finishes, however I've seen no actual evidence of this, and even if it was, the quantities are unlikely to be sufficient to be detectable at all, especially years later. When we talk about lead paint, the lead is in the form of pigments such as lead oxides, carbonate, or chromate. These pigments constituted a large propertion of the paint, and it's these pigments that present the lead poisoning hazard. Lead acetate is not a pigment-- it was only ever used as a drier-- and it would make absolutely no sense to add it in any significant quantity to pigmented paint, because the pigments are themselves very effective driers. And indeed, I've never seen evidence that lead acetate was ever used in any significant quantities in paint. The legend about the Romans using it to sweeten drinks and sauces is historically verifiable.

lazide 5y ago

Correct - and lead oxide is not tetra ethyl lead, or the nasty lead salts. It isn’t great, but it is also not that much worse than elemental lead from a mobility or toxicity perspective. And I noted the exact hazard for breathing dusts and vapors, so thanks for repeating it? It’s also a bit disingenuous to use someone LITERALLY BURNING AND VAPORIZING MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF LEAD, at a huge and industrial scale for a very long time time, as a safety comparison. Of course that is going to make a giant mess. Whoever let them build houses there without it being remediated should be in jail. It doesn’t change the fact that you essentially have to play every day in a literal superfund site with probably 1000x or more the worrisome levels before it really becomes a serious problem? Lead isn’t a thing you want to eat or play in. It will mess you up. But let’s not pretend that a little piston plane is going to poison LA in any measurable way because it is flying over it while burning leaded gas. And thanks for the lead paint chips not being sweet! I personally never tried, so good to know it’s not true

nate_meurer 5y ago
> Correct - and lead oxide is not tetra ethyl lead, or the nasty lead salts. It isn’t great, but it is also not that much worse than elemental lead from a mobility or toxicity perspective. No, the dominant lead compounds found in soils are much more hazardous than elemental lead. They are much more easily absorbed orally, and elemental lead isn't a realistic inhalation hazard unless you work in an actual smelter. > It’s also a bit disingenuous to use someone LITERALLY BURNING AND VAPORIZING MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF LEAD, at a huge and industrial scale for a very long time time, as a safety comparison. Of course that is going to make a giant mess. Whoever let them build houses there without it being remediated should be in jail. The neighborhood is around a hundred years old. The smelter operated in the late 1800's. Who do you propose should be jailed? > you essentially have to play every day in a literal superfund site with probably 1000x or more the worrisome levels before it really becomes a serious problem? No, the vast majority of lead poisoning in kids happens in ordinary households. The most common sources of lead in thee poisoning cases are paint dust and chips, dust from vinyl miniblinds, leaded glazes in dishes, stuff like that.
- lazide 5y ago