5 ms·

Speed limits and building codes generally don't have side effects that can kill you. A bunch of otherwise healthy people have died from the vaccine. You can ar

by yarcob 5y ago

Speed limits and building codes generally don't have side effects that can kill you. A bunch of otherwise healthy people have died from the vaccine. You can argue that it's a numbers game, and that getting vaccinated is still less risky, but the decision should not be forced on anyone.

mavhc 5y ago
A bunch? How many, to the nearest 100.
- yarcob 5y ago
  Enough that some governments recommend Astra Zeneca only for elderly patients, because risk/reward might be too big for healthy, young patients. I just don't think anybody should force anyone to get a shot. That should be a personal decision.
  - mavhc 5y ago
    So 0? Or 100?
    - yarcob 5y ago
      In Germany the Paul Ehrlich Institute has received 871 reports of deaths after vaccination. Most of them are from elderly people, but there are also a bunch of young people who have likely died from side effects. PEI reports 21 people under 40 who died from thrombosis after Astra Zeneca. Biontech and Moderna had other side effects (myocarditis for young men), and also a bunch of young deaths. Johnson is not common enough in Germany to make any reasonable judgements. Severe side effects (not deaths) are around 0,2 per 1000 shots. (reported side effects, actual number may be higher) Source (in German): https://www.pei.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/newsroom/dossiers/sicherheitsberichte/sicherheitsbericht-27-12-bis-31-05-21.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=7 https://www.pei.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/newsroom/dossiers...
      - throwawayboise 5y ago
        How many German people under 40 die from thrombosis or suffer myocarditis in an average year? This year, when everyone is getting vaccinated, it's easy to draw unwarranted conclusions that rare conditions are being trigged by the vaccine when it could possibly be just cooincidence.
        yarcob 5y ago
        To the best of my knowledge, the fact that thrombosis is a (rare) side effect of Astra Zeneca and Johnson is pretty thoroughly established. It's a pretty specific type of thrombosis, and afaik it doesn't occur eg. for the Biontech and Moderna vaccines. I know there's a lot of misinformation about the vaccines going the rounds, but that doesn't mean that all reports of side effects are made up or statistical noise.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
        Good information, but those numbers always need to be traded off against the number of people who (a) would have died anyway (b) would have died from COVID19 had they not been vaccinated.
oscardssmith 5y ago
That is just false. The current number of possible vaccine related deaths in the US is 1.
armada651 5y ago
Eventually some employers will want everyone back in the office. And running the risk of being infected with COVID because your employer forces unvaccinated individuals into your close proximity is not a personal choice either. The latter has a several orders of magnitude higher death rate than the vaccines. So which option should the employer go for? Mandate everyone to get vaccinated or mandate everyone to mingle with the unvaccinated?
- matz1 5y ago
  Why would I afraid of hanging out in close proximity with unvaccinated individual if I'm vaccinated ?
  - armada651 5y ago
    There are more severe breakthrough cases in vaccinated individuals than there are deadly outcomes to getting vaccinated. Also there's the risk that even a mild case has long term side effects. Since the number of deadly outcomes or side effects to the vaccine is so low the breakthrough cases in vaccinated individuals become significant when you compare the risks.
    - throwawayboise 5y ago
      This just feeds the beliefs that some people have that the vaccines don't really work. We should be strongly demonstrating that the vaccinated do not need to wear masks, distance, etc so that there are clear benefits to being vaccinated. If the vaccines reduce the disease to nothing more severe than a cold or mild flu, we should be back to the same daily routines we had when those things were an ordinary risk at the workplace.
      - armada651 5y ago
        In my opinion pretending the vaccine is 100% effective and carries 0 risk has done more to shake public confidence than informing people about the risks no matter how small. In the information age it has become easier than ever to find contradicting data and there will always be contradicting data. Besides, most people have enough life experience to intuitively know that there's no certainty in life. Being honest with people will do more to gain their trust than enhancing the truth for their own well-being.
throwawayboise 5y ago
> A bunch of otherwise healthy people have died from the vaccine. Here's my take on that. Yes, some young, healthy people have died after taking the vaccine. Small numbers of young, healthy people die for no apparent reason all the time, but because vast numbers of people were not all getting the same vaccines at the same time, there was never a plausible common thread to tie them to.
- yarcob 5y ago
  The doctors who track side effects are not stupid. They look for clusters of similar cases, and compare reported cases to the expected number of cases considering how many people in each age/gender cohort got the shot. It's not like this is the first time a vaccine is introduced.

by yarcob 5y ago

mavhc 5y ago

A bunch? How many, to the nearest 100.

yarcob 5y ago
Enough that some governments recommend Astra Zeneca only for elderly patients, because risk/reward might be too big for healthy, young patients. I just don't think anybody should force anyone to get a shot. That should be a personal decision.
- mavhc 5y ago
  So 0? Or 100?
  - yarcob 5y ago
    In Germany the Paul Ehrlich Institute has received 871 reports of deaths after vaccination. Most of them are from elderly people, but there are also a bunch of young people who have likely died from side effects. PEI reports 21 people under 40 who died from thrombosis after Astra Zeneca. Biontech and Moderna had other side effects (myocarditis for young men), and also a bunch of young deaths. Johnson is not common enough in Germany to make any reasonable judgements. Severe side effects (not deaths) are around 0,2 per 1000 shots. (reported side effects, actual number may be higher) Source (in German): https://www.pei.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/newsroom/dossiers/sicherheitsberichte/sicherheitsbericht-27-12-bis-31-05-21.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=7 https://www.pei.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/newsroom/dossiers...
    - throwawayboise 5y ago
      How many German people under 40 die from thrombosis or suffer myocarditis in an average year? This year, when everyone is getting vaccinated, it's easy to draw unwarranted conclusions that rare conditions are being trigged by the vaccine when it could possibly be just cooincidence.
      - yarcob 5y ago
        To the best of my knowledge, the fact that thrombosis is a (rare) side effect of Astra Zeneca and Johnson is pretty thoroughly established. It's a pretty specific type of thrombosis, and afaik it doesn't occur eg. for the Biontech and Moderna vaccines. I know there's a lot of misinformation about the vaccines going the rounds, but that doesn't mean that all reports of side effects are made up or statistical noise.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
      Good information, but those numbers always need to be traded off against the number of people who (a) would have died anyway (b) would have died from COVID19 had they not been vaccinated.

oscardssmith 5y ago

That is just false. The current number of possible vaccine related deaths in the US is 1.

armada651 5y ago

Eventually some employers will want everyone back in the office. And running the risk of being infected with COVID because your employer forces unvaccinated individuals into your close proximity is not a personal choice either. The latter has a several orders of magnitude higher death rate than the vaccines. So which option should the employer go for? Mandate everyone to get vaccinated or mandate everyone to mingle with the unvaccinated?

matz1 5y ago
Why would I afraid of hanging out in close proximity with unvaccinated individual if I'm vaccinated ?
- armada651 5y ago
  There are more severe breakthrough cases in vaccinated individuals than there are deadly outcomes to getting vaccinated. Also there's the risk that even a mild case has long term side effects. Since the number of deadly outcomes or side effects to the vaccine is so low the breakthrough cases in vaccinated individuals become significant when you compare the risks.
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    This just feeds the beliefs that some people have that the vaccines don't really work. We should be strongly demonstrating that the vaccinated do not need to wear masks, distance, etc so that there are clear benefits to being vaccinated. If the vaccines reduce the disease to nothing more severe than a cold or mild flu, we should be back to the same daily routines we had when those things were an ordinary risk at the workplace.
    - armada651 5y ago
      In my opinion pretending the vaccine is 100% effective and carries 0 risk has done more to shake public confidence than informing people about the risks no matter how small. In the information age it has become easier than ever to find contradicting data and there will always be contradicting data. Besides, most people have enough life experience to intuitively know that there's no certainty in life. Being honest with people will do more to gain their trust than enhancing the truth for their own well-being.

throwawayboise 5y ago

> A bunch of otherwise healthy people have died from the vaccine. Here's my take on that. Yes, some young, healthy people have died after taking the vaccine. Small numbers of young, healthy people die for no apparent reason all the time, but because vast numbers of people were not all getting the same vaccines at the same time, there was never a plausible common thread to tie them to.

yarcob 5y ago
The doctors who track side effects are not stupid. They look for clusters of similar cases, and compare reported cases to the expected number of cases considering how many people in each age/gender cohort got the shot. It's not like this is the first time a vaccine is introduced.