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It would be nice if Toyota actually had any interest in plug in hybrids. Their only one, the Prius Prime, is more expensive than its competitors and offers less

It would be nice if Toyota actually had any interest in plug in hybrids. Their only one, the Prius Prime, is more expensive than its competitors and offers less than half their range. What's the point of getting a PHEV if I still spend half my commute running on gasoline?

nicoburns 5y ago
To be fair Toyota announced their new lineup of BEVs just last month, to be released next year. Toyota is late to the party, but they are on their way.
- bbarnett 5y ago
  To be fairer, they were very early to the party too. They bet on electric, very early in the game and more than one kind too!
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    That’s what’s so frustrating! They had the technology and the scale to go nearly all-in on battery electric about 2 decades ago (maybe with gas backup in the early days) but they squandered it.
  - sangnoir 5y ago
    Toyota bet on Electric and Hydrogen, then proceeded to double-down on hydrogen. Then never really went all-in on electric and this sadly lost them their early lead.
    - fomine3 5y ago
      Toyota still bets solid state battery, but I with they bets current li-ion more
anonuser123456 5y ago
This year they introduced the RAV4 prime, with 48 miles electric. The Prius prime is still in it's initial design iteration. Major updates occur typically every 7 years for auto manufacturers, so one would expect a new, improved range Prius prime somewhere in the 2023 range.
- KMnO4 5y ago
  48 miles is probably good enough for 95%+ of people. Also worth noting that that’s higher than any other PHEV in its class (SUV).
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    The rav4 Prime is sufficient at nearly 50 miles of electric range, but it sucks that it took 2 decades to get there when even GM had the technology basically perfected a decade ago with the Volt. It’s literally better than their hydrogen vehicles. Even if you had to synthesize the small amount of gasoline they might use. Longer range plug in hybrids plus electrically synthesized liquids beat pure hydrogen vehicles in cost, refueling ease, and overall emissions.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > GM had the technology basically perfected a decade ago with the Volt. The Volt is tiny car with limited utility. The RAV4 EV has vastly more cargo and passenger space. For a single person going from point A to point B it might not matter, but the technical challenge of battery range plus utility isn't the same as battery range disregarding utility.
      - Robotbeat 5y ago
        I have a Volt and it's awesome. It's a hatchback with lots of cargo space (5 seats in the Gen 2 Volt, too). Don't know that you mean about "limited utility." The Volt powertrain would've worked fine in a crossover vehicle like the Rav4 with only a small scale-up.
winternett 5y ago
3 major problems none of the EV evangelists are addressing about with EVs are 1. What happens to all the giant lithium batteries on these vehicles after they reach end of life? 2. How will people be able to evacuate a city or state in an emergency situation when charging/electric supply is not present (which is always likely to happen)? 3. Coal burning infrastructure is still inextricably involved in generating the power to charge these vehicles, that must be considered in terms of overall value of EVs in reducing environmental impacts of fossil fuel elimination. We need to realize that the motivation to deploy EVs too early is driven by profit rather than by motives in environmental protection and conservation of resources, then the really productive conversations can occur.
- stuaxo 5y ago
  1. They will be recycled. 2. Never heard this one, what kind of apocalypse are you foreseeing ? 3. Centralised generation is easier to mitigate, and later replace with clean generation.
  - colordrops 5y ago
    And for 3, it's not all or nothing - it can happen incrementally. I fully charge my Tesla using the panels on my roof, no hydrocarbons were ever involved.
  - robotnikman 5y ago
    For #2, I think it might be valid for areas which experience hurricanes or other natural disasters. Though, couldn't you charge your car with a gas generator in an emergency if you really needed to?
    - relaxing 5y ago
      Good point! You could carry the gas generator with you when you leave. Maybe some EVs would let you plug in while driving! You'd just have to redirect the generator exhaust out the back via some sort tail-pipe...
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
More expensive and substantially less specs on paper is pretty par for the course for Toyota. But motorcycles only really work when the weather is good and people buy those too. People rationalize these purchases in other ways.
cmrdporcupine 5y ago
Exactly. GM showed with a Volt that a PHEV could be effectively a BEV 90% of the time and perform excellently even when falling back into ICE mode, but the Prime came out after the Volt and its drivetrain is inferior in every way to it. I understand the Prime is roomier and so on, but in terms of drivetrain it's woefully inferior. As a Volt and Mitsu Outlander PHEV owner I obviously have nothing against the PHEV concept. But just comparing the two I can say that the Volt is more of a BEV with high quality range extension, while our Outlander is just a soft hybrid that can only sometimes use the battery exclusively. Pretty much all the PHEVs (including the Prime) are like that, and they gave the whole concept of PHEV a bad name. EDIT: the Outlander has other attributes that make it innovative and good for us, though, such as its AWD system which uses dual electric motors, negating the need for a longitudinal shaft and differential etc.
- thinkling 5y ago
  My impression is that GM had trouble making the Voltec drive train work in larger cars. The Volt is a low-slung, very aerodynamic car. As soon as you turn that into a crossover (as they were rumored to be doing) or a small SUV, both range and gas mileage are going to suffer. It's too bad. We have a Volt and I would have loved the same drivetrain in a car with more ground clearance and a bit more cargo space.
- Causality1 5y ago
  My ideal vehicle would be a Volt made by Toyota. I have several mechanic friends and all have warned me against buying any GM vehicle, especially one with as complex a drive system as a Volt.
  - cmrdporcupine 5y ago
    The drivetrain in the Volt is exceedingly reliable. Like, 0 problems for most people. There's almost no maintenance required. Other things in the car are the issue. Stupid things like the infamous "shift to park" issue (crappy $2 switch in the shifter mechanism so it doesn't recognize that you're in park even when you're mechanically in park and complains when you turn it off). Or just generally typically mediocre Chevy interior, etc. Still love driving mine, I'd have a hard time giving it up. It somehow feels very sporty. I find Toyota's very boring to drive.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> Their only one, the Prius Prime, is more expensive than its competitors and offers less than half their range. What's the point of getting a PHEV if I still spend half my commute running on gasoline? The Prime has a 25 mile battery range, which is well over the average driven commute distance in the US (its about the average daily driven distance for drivers.)
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  It’s about half of what you’d need to comfortably go without gas the vast, vast majority of time. The Chevy Volt has about the right plug in electric range (50 miles) for a future where we have to basically synthesize all fuels.
  - Causality1 5y ago
    Exactly. It's a future proof car. If gas gets much more expensive you're ok. If the battery ages and dies you're still ok.
dzhiurgis 5y ago
If it's going to take 10 years to reach 50% BEV sales, why not focus on PHEV's first. 10x smaller battery still covers 80% of uses. Or perhaps we are past that point already - I have no idea how that upgrade math checks out...

nicoburns 5y ago

To be fair Toyota announced their new lineup of BEVs just last month, to be released next year. Toyota is late to the party, but they are on their way.

bbarnett 5y ago
To be fairer, they were very early to the party too. They bet on electric, very early in the game and more than one kind too!
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  That’s what’s so frustrating! They had the technology and the scale to go nearly all-in on battery electric about 2 decades ago (maybe with gas backup in the early days) but they squandered it.
- sangnoir 5y ago
  Toyota bet on Electric and Hydrogen, then proceeded to double-down on hydrogen. Then never really went all-in on electric and this sadly lost them their early lead.
  - fomine3 5y ago
    Toyota still bets solid state battery, but I with they bets current li-ion more

anonuser123456 5y ago

This year they introduced the RAV4 prime, with 48 miles electric. The Prius prime is still in it's initial design iteration. Major updates occur typically every 7 years for auto manufacturers, so one would expect a new, improved range Prius prime somewhere in the 2023 range.

KMnO4 5y ago
48 miles is probably good enough for 95%+ of people. Also worth noting that that’s higher than any other PHEV in its class (SUV).
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  The rav4 Prime is sufficient at nearly 50 miles of electric range, but it sucks that it took 2 decades to get there when even GM had the technology basically perfected a decade ago with the Volt. It’s literally better than their hydrogen vehicles. Even if you had to synthesize the small amount of gasoline they might use. Longer range plug in hybrids plus electrically synthesized liquids beat pure hydrogen vehicles in cost, refueling ease, and overall emissions.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > GM had the technology basically perfected a decade ago with the Volt. The Volt is tiny car with limited utility. The RAV4 EV has vastly more cargo and passenger space. For a single person going from point A to point B it might not matter, but the technical challenge of battery range plus utility isn't the same as battery range disregarding utility.
    - Robotbeat 5y ago
      I have a Volt and it's awesome. It's a hatchback with lots of cargo space (5 seats in the Gen 2 Volt, too). Don't know that you mean about "limited utility." The Volt powertrain would've worked fine in a crossover vehicle like the Rav4 with only a small scale-up.

winternett 5y ago

3 major problems none of the EV evangelists are addressing about with EVs are 1. What happens to all the giant lithium batteries on these vehicles after they reach end of life? 2. How will people be able to evacuate a city or state in an emergency situation when charging/electric supply is not present (which is always likely to happen)? 3. Coal burning infrastructure is still inextricably involved in generating the power to charge these vehicles, that must be considered in terms of overall value of EVs in reducing environmental impacts of fossil fuel elimination. We need to realize that the motivation to deploy EVs too early is driven by profit rather than by motives in environmental protection and conservation of resources, then the really productive conversations can occur.

stuaxo 5y ago
1. They will be recycled. 2. Never heard this one, what kind of apocalypse are you foreseeing ? 3. Centralised generation is easier to mitigate, and later replace with clean generation.
- colordrops 5y ago
  And for 3, it's not all or nothing - it can happen incrementally. I fully charge my Tesla using the panels on my roof, no hydrocarbons were ever involved.
- robotnikman 5y ago
  For #2, I think it might be valid for areas which experience hurricanes or other natural disasters. Though, couldn't you charge your car with a gas generator in an emergency if you really needed to?
  - relaxing 5y ago
    Good point! You could carry the gas generator with you when you leave. Maybe some EVs would let you plug in while driving! You'd just have to redirect the generator exhaust out the back via some sort tail-pipe...

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

More expensive and substantially less specs on paper is pretty par for the course for Toyota. But motorcycles only really work when the weather is good and people buy those too. People rationalize these purchases in other ways.

cmrdporcupine 5y ago

Exactly. GM showed with a Volt that a PHEV could be effectively a BEV 90% of the time and perform excellently even when falling back into ICE mode, but the Prime came out after the Volt and its drivetrain is inferior in every way to it. I understand the Prime is roomier and so on, but in terms of drivetrain it's woefully inferior. As a Volt and Mitsu Outlander PHEV owner I obviously have nothing against the PHEV concept. But just comparing the two I can say that the Volt is more of a BEV with high quality range extension, while our Outlander is just a soft hybrid that can only sometimes use the battery exclusively. Pretty much all the PHEVs (including the Prime) are like that, and they gave the whole concept of PHEV a bad name. EDIT: the Outlander has other attributes that make it innovative and good for us, though, such as its AWD system which uses dual electric motors, negating the need for a longitudinal shaft and differential etc.

thinkling 5y ago
My impression is that GM had trouble making the Voltec drive train work in larger cars. The Volt is a low-slung, very aerodynamic car. As soon as you turn that into a crossover (as they were rumored to be doing) or a small SUV, both range and gas mileage are going to suffer. It's too bad. We have a Volt and I would have loved the same drivetrain in a car with more ground clearance and a bit more cargo space.
Causality1 5y ago
My ideal vehicle would be a Volt made by Toyota. I have several mechanic friends and all have warned me against buying any GM vehicle, especially one with as complex a drive system as a Volt.
- cmrdporcupine 5y ago
  The drivetrain in the Volt is exceedingly reliable. Like, 0 problems for most people. There's almost no maintenance required. Other things in the car are the issue. Stupid things like the infamous "shift to park" issue (crappy $2 switch in the shifter mechanism so it doesn't recognize that you're in park even when you're mechanically in park and complains when you turn it off). Or just generally typically mediocre Chevy interior, etc. Still love driving mine, I'd have a hard time giving it up. It somehow feels very sporty. I find Toyota's very boring to drive.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> Their only one, the Prius Prime, is more expensive than its competitors and offers less than half their range. What's the point of getting a PHEV if I still spend half my commute running on gasoline? The Prime has a 25 mile battery range, which is well over the average driven commute distance in the US (its about the average daily driven distance for drivers.)

Robotbeat 5y ago
It’s about half of what you’d need to comfortably go without gas the vast, vast majority of time. The Chevy Volt has about the right plug in electric range (50 miles) for a future where we have to basically synthesize all fuels.
- Causality1 5y ago
  Exactly. It's a future proof car. If gas gets much more expensive you're ok. If the battery ages and dies you're still ok.

dzhiurgis 5y ago

If it's going to take 10 years to reach 50% BEV sales, why not focus on PHEV's first. 10x smaller battery still covers 80% of uses. Or perhaps we are past that point already - I have no idea how that upgrade math checks out...