8 ms·

I think the largest problem of persuasion right now is that no one (left or right) is willing to really try to understand what it is like in the shoes of the ot

I think the largest problem of persuasion right now is that no one (left or right) is willing to really try to understand what it is like in the shoes of the other. Until we get past that, we're just going to keep fighting. The only ones that see this are those that recently switched sides (aka usually moderates).

nonomaybeyes 5y ago
I don't think it's that symmetric. Generally it's the faction that holds the power that doesn't want to consider anything other than its own perspective. The lower factions understand the perspectives of the others perfectly well.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  In the current situation in the US, which faction holds the power? I would say neither clearly holds the power. The Senate is split 50-50. The conservatives hold the Supreme Court, and the liberals hold the House and the Presidency. And those have flipped in recent elections. So both sides are fighting as hard as they can, because they are this close to winning control. But "fighting as hard as you can" is not conducive to thoughtfully listening to the other side.
jfengel 5y ago
The way I see it, the left tried really, really hard for a long time. They probably tried badly, but they did try. The intellectual left loves to pump out articles and books trying to explain right-wing thought: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_Matter_with_Kansas%3F_(book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_Matter_with_Kansa... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Righteous_Mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Righteous_Mind https://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/06/do-as-i-do-not-as-i-say/?mtrref=undefined&gwh=7F86A6DD2A809C0106EC38EB7D3062C9&gwt=pay&assetType=PAYWALL https://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/06/do-as-i-d... (paywall) Whereas books by prominent conservatives tend to have titles like "Demonic : How the Liberal Mob Is Endangering America" and "Liberal Fascism : The Secret History of the American Left, from Mussolini to the Politics of Change". (Not that the left doesn't produce books with similar titles, but they don't get wide distribution, while you've heard of Ann Coulter and Jonah Goldberg). Your statement is probably true, but it's as a matter of self-fulfilling prophecy. If one side insists long enough that that the other side is literally evil, they won't be understood no matter how hard their opponents try. Every time liberals lose elections, there is hand-wringing about understanding the other side. But I've never seen the equivalent worry about how conservatives can understand liberals. Instead, the response is usually to do the same thing even harder -- which works, because it generates enthusiastic support from the far right and grudging support from the center, while compromise bores everybody. It eventually resulted in Trump, whose primary skill is in being deliberately offensive. And it would have worked again, had a literal pandemic not intervened. He remains incredibly popular with the right -- not because he tries to understand liberals, but because he specifically rejects the notion that there's anything there to understand. This conclusion is repugnant, and I rejected it for a very long time. But it seems inescapable. And I have no idea what to recommend, because it seems clear that no amount of me trying harder to understand is going to help. I do believe, however, that additional calls for equivalence are detrimental. They deny the reality that the split is asymmetric, and therefore shunt us into lines of thought that will continue to prove ineffective.
- snegu 5y ago
  There is something to this. I am a big fan of the organization Braver Angels, which is working to reduce polarization and facilitate conversations between people with different viewpoints. One of their biggest struggles is that they get significant participation from the "blue" tribe, but have trouble recruiting "red" tribe members. Some of this may be skepticism from the red tribe that they will be treated fairly, but I wonder how much is simply lack of interest in understanding others.
  - a_conservative 5y ago
    > but I wonder how much is simply lack of interest in understanding others. Talk about assuming the worst about people! Let me present an alternate theory: The "blue tribe" is surprised by a "red tribe" reaction more than the "red tribe" is surprised by the "blue tribe". I read about a study in the lead up to the 2016 election. Conservatives were asked to voice liberal opinions and vice versa. The conservatives were able to voice opposing viewpoints significantly better than those who leaned left wing. This blog came up while searching for a source on that research and has some other information you might find useful. I can relate to the author's feeling of frustration very well! [0] [0] https://ricochet.com/76902/archives/conservatives-understand-liberals-liberals-dont-understand-conservatives/ https://ricochet.com/76902/archives/conservatives-understand...
    - majormajor 5y ago
      It's hard for me to tell what that means. Does it mean conservatives are doing more work empathy-wise? Does it mean liberal views have more consistency or derivable-reasoning to them, so that they can be understood even without holding them? > For instance,when conservatives express binding-foundation moral concerns about gay marriage—e.g., that it subverts traditional gender roles and family structures—liberals may have difficulty perceiving any moral value in such traditional arrangements and therefore conclude that conservatives are motivated by simple homophobia, untempered by concerns about fairness, equality, and rights. This, for instance, seems to boil down to an appeal to authority or appeal to tradition, which, yes, is in the name "conservative" but seems quite circular to use as a reason to hold the position. "Your position is reasonable on the basis of the dimensions it considers but it fails to consider these other important dimensions" is also MILES away from how popular conservative pundits represent liberal positions.
spaetzleesser 5y ago
Very true. The amount of energy spent on trying to persuade or vilify the “other” side is much higher than the effort that’s put into really understanding issues and trying to come up with solutions.

nonomaybeyes 5y ago

I don't think it's that symmetric. Generally it's the faction that holds the power that doesn't want to consider anything other than its own perspective. The lower factions understand the perspectives of the others perfectly well.

AnimalMuppet 5y ago
In the current situation in the US, which faction holds the power? I would say neither clearly holds the power. The Senate is split 50-50. The conservatives hold the Supreme Court, and the liberals hold the House and the Presidency. And those have flipped in recent elections. So both sides are fighting as hard as they can, because they are this close to winning control. But "fighting as hard as you can" is not conducive to thoughtfully listening to the other side.

jfengel 5y ago

The way I see it, the left tried really, really hard for a long time. They probably tried badly, but they did try. The intellectual left loves to pump out articles and books trying to explain right-wing thought: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_Matter_with_Kansas%3F_(book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What%27s_the_Matter_with_Kansa... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Righteous_Mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Righteous_Mind https://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/06/do-as-i-do-not-as-i-say/?mtrref=undefined&gwh=7F86A6DD2A809C0106EC38EB7D3062C9&gwt=pay&assetType=PAYWALL https://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/06/do-as-i-d... (paywall) Whereas books by prominent conservatives tend to have titles like "Demonic : How the Liberal Mob Is Endangering America" and "Liberal Fascism : The Secret History of the American Left, from Mussolini to the Politics of Change". (Not that the left doesn't produce books with similar titles, but they don't get wide distribution, while you've heard of Ann Coulter and Jonah Goldberg). Your statement is probably true, but it's as a matter of self-fulfilling prophecy. If one side insists long enough that that the other side is literally evil, they won't be understood no matter how hard their opponents try. Every time liberals lose elections, there is hand-wringing about understanding the other side. But I've never seen the equivalent worry about how conservatives can understand liberals. Instead, the response is usually to do the same thing even harder -- which works, because it generates enthusiastic support from the far right and grudging support from the center, while compromise bores everybody. It eventually resulted in Trump, whose primary skill is in being deliberately offensive. And it would have worked again, had a literal pandemic not intervened. He remains incredibly popular with the right -- not because he tries to understand liberals, but because he specifically rejects the notion that there's anything there to understand. This conclusion is repugnant, and I rejected it for a very long time. But it seems inescapable. And I have no idea what to recommend, because it seems clear that no amount of me trying harder to understand is going to help. I do believe, however, that additional calls for equivalence are detrimental. They deny the reality that the split is asymmetric, and therefore shunt us into lines of thought that will continue to prove ineffective.

snegu 5y ago
There is something to this. I am a big fan of the organization Braver Angels, which is working to reduce polarization and facilitate conversations between people with different viewpoints. One of their biggest struggles is that they get significant participation from the "blue" tribe, but have trouble recruiting "red" tribe members. Some of this may be skepticism from the red tribe that they will be treated fairly, but I wonder how much is simply lack of interest in understanding others.
- a_conservative 5y ago
  > but I wonder how much is simply lack of interest in understanding others. Talk about assuming the worst about people! Let me present an alternate theory: The "blue tribe" is surprised by a "red tribe" reaction more than the "red tribe" is surprised by the "blue tribe". I read about a study in the lead up to the 2016 election. Conservatives were asked to voice liberal opinions and vice versa. The conservatives were able to voice opposing viewpoints significantly better than those who leaned left wing. This blog came up while searching for a source on that research and has some other information you might find useful. I can relate to the author's feeling of frustration very well! [0] [0] https://ricochet.com/76902/archives/conservatives-understand-liberals-liberals-dont-understand-conservatives/ https://ricochet.com/76902/archives/conservatives-understand...
  - majormajor 5y ago
    It's hard for me to tell what that means. Does it mean conservatives are doing more work empathy-wise? Does it mean liberal views have more consistency or derivable-reasoning to them, so that they can be understood even without holding them? > For instance,when conservatives express binding-foundation moral concerns about gay marriage—e.g., that it subverts traditional gender roles and family structures—liberals may have difficulty perceiving any moral value in such traditional arrangements and therefore conclude that conservatives are motivated by simple homophobia, untempered by concerns about fairness, equality, and rights. This, for instance, seems to boil down to an appeal to authority or appeal to tradition, which, yes, is in the name "conservative" but seems quite circular to use as a reason to hold the position. "Your position is reasonable on the basis of the dimensions it considers but it fails to consider these other important dimensions" is also MILES away from how popular conservative pundits represent liberal positions.

spaetzleesser 5y ago

Very true. The amount of energy spent on trying to persuade or vilify the “other” side is much higher than the effort that’s put into really understanding issues and trying to come up with solutions.