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I still think Plato invented Socrates. If Socrates was so wise, why did he get himself killed in such a dumb way? We know today you can't just go around tellin

by hashkb 5y ago

I still think Plato invented Socrates. If Socrates was so wise, why did he get himself killed in such a dumb way? We know today you can't just go around telling powerful people they're wrong.

Leparamour 5y ago
>why did he get himself killed in such a dumb way? We know today you can't just go around telling powerful people they're wrong. Maybe he was on the autism spectrum?
drooby 5y ago
Perhaps Socrates was not in fact wise….But perhaps he would have told you that.
- programmarchy 5y ago
  He did tell us that, but nobody believed him!
- xyzzy21 5y ago
  He was literally "stoic" which is a wisdom that you can't change most things in the world so you survive as best you can and if you can't you accept that you can't control when your life ends either. If people still read the Classics, this would be widely known as table-stakes.
  - kritiko 5y ago
    Socrates was not a stoic. Stoicism was founded by Zeno of Citium roughly 100 years after Socrates’ death.
klyrs 5y ago
Speaking truth to power has always had its risks, yes. But, wisdom isn't the same as self preservation. Down that road is acquiescence, and cowardice. Perhaps he made a choice: to be remembered as unprincipled in the face of personal risk, or to die in sacrifice to his principles and be a guiding light for those who seek the truth for millenia to come.
User23 5y ago
Socrates is attested not just by Plato, who was a huge fan boy, but also by Aristophanes who didn't care for him and Xenophon who was fairly neutral.
apocalypstyx 5y ago
Based on my readings of the contradictions in the various accounts, I would say he intended to die. He, in effect, I think, found a way of enacting the story of Empedocles, where Empedocles tries to die by jumping into a volcano so he will have just seemingly vanished and be believed to have ascended to godhood but was revealed by his bronze sandals. And in some ways seems reminiscent of Yukio Mishima. And it seems to have worked, to a degree. Over 2,000 years later, everyone from layman to politician invokes his name and death as often as they do Jesus. Not existing is often a really good way of kind of existing seemingly forever.
bobthechef 5y ago
Is it dumb? Only if you believe self-preservation is more important than everything else at all costs. He chose to remain faithful to speaking truth (or what he believed to be true and asking questions to humbly discover it) rather than acquiesce to a bunch of manipulative tyrants. Such actions not only commit you to stand by the truth in thought, word, and deed, but they inspire others to do the same and thus disperse the evil of the world. It was a blow to the systemic lies of myth and sophistry employed by the powerful of the world. Socrates did not choose death. He chose truth while accepting that he would be killed by those in power. Big difference, except for a utilitarian. Now whether he should have chosen exile, I don't know. In some sense, what he chose is heroic and more inspiring than skipping town. Christian martyrdom is like this. A Christian remains steadfast in the truth even to the point of death. This is a faithfulness to Truth that cannot be destroyed by evil men who would use fear to part us from the truth and toss us back into the darkness and slavery of lies. In remaining faithful to the truth, the martyr truly lives and is truly happy no matter what pain comes his way, whereas some men spend decades rotting in the misery of lies. The martyr loves the truth to the point of the extinction of self. He also dies in anticipation of the Beatific Vision. This is the greatest fulfillment of a rational being wherein the doors of the soul are flung open to the infinite fullness of truth. In the vanity of the City of Man, on the other hand, men love themselves to the point of the extinction of truth and thus live in death and misery. The truth will set you free and so in a sense Socrates died as free of a man as you might have reasonably expected a pagan to be in his position.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
playdead 5y ago
> I still think Plato invented Socrates. No, he was an actual historical person. Plato of course wrote a more literary depiction of him, not a direct transcript of his conversations. > If Socrates was so wise, why did he get himself killed in such a dumb way? You should probably actually read the dialogues (at least the Apology and the Crito) and you'll understand what happened. Socrates explicitly chose not to escape prison and to go through with the execution, and he gives his reasons in the Crito.
mensetmanusman 5y ago
We all die, mostly in dumb ways (cancer, sick bed, car accidents, obesity, etc.) The smart way to die?

by hashkb 5y ago

I still think Plato invented Socrates. If Socrates was so wise, why did he get himself killed in such a dumb way? We know today you can't just go around telling powerful people they're wrong.

Leparamour 5y ago

>why did he get himself killed in such a dumb way? We know today you can't just go around telling powerful people they're wrong. Maybe he was on the autism spectrum?

drooby 5y ago

Perhaps Socrates was not in fact wise….But perhaps he would have told you that.

programmarchy 5y ago
He did tell us that, but nobody believed him!
xyzzy21 5y ago
He was literally "stoic" which is a wisdom that you can't change most things in the world so you survive as best you can and if you can't you accept that you can't control when your life ends either. If people still read the Classics, this would be widely known as table-stakes.
- kritiko 5y ago
  Socrates was not a stoic. Stoicism was founded by Zeno of Citium roughly 100 years after Socrates’ death.

klyrs 5y ago

Speaking truth to power has always had its risks, yes. But, wisdom isn't the same as self preservation. Down that road is acquiescence, and cowardice. Perhaps he made a choice: to be remembered as unprincipled in the face of personal risk, or to die in sacrifice to his principles and be a guiding light for those who seek the truth for millenia to come.

User23 5y ago

Socrates is attested not just by Plato, who was a huge fan boy, but also by Aristophanes who didn't care for him and Xenophon who was fairly neutral.

apocalypstyx 5y ago

Based on my readings of the contradictions in the various accounts, I would say he intended to die. He, in effect, I think, found a way of enacting the story of Empedocles, where Empedocles tries to die by jumping into a volcano so he will have just seemingly vanished and be believed to have ascended to godhood but was revealed by his bronze sandals. And in some ways seems reminiscent of Yukio Mishima. And it seems to have worked, to a degree. Over 2,000 years later, everyone from layman to politician invokes his name and death as often as they do Jesus. Not existing is often a really good way of kind of existing seemingly forever.

bobthechef 5y ago

Is it dumb? Only if you believe self-preservation is more important than everything else at all costs. He chose to remain faithful to speaking truth (or what he believed to be true and asking questions to humbly discover it) rather than acquiesce to a bunch of manipulative tyrants. Such actions not only commit you to stand by the truth in thought, word, and deed, but they inspire others to do the same and thus disperse the evil of the world. It was a blow to the systemic lies of myth and sophistry employed by the powerful of the world. Socrates did not choose death. He chose truth while accepting that he would be killed by those in power. Big difference, except for a utilitarian. Now whether he should have chosen exile, I don't know. In some sense, what he chose is heroic and more inspiring than skipping town. Christian martyrdom is like this. A Christian remains steadfast in the truth even to the point of death. This is a faithfulness to Truth that cannot be destroyed by evil men who would use fear to part us from the truth and toss us back into the darkness and slavery of lies. In remaining faithful to the truth, the martyr truly lives and is truly happy no matter what pain comes his way, whereas some men spend decades rotting in the misery of lies. The martyr loves the truth to the point of the extinction of self. He also dies in anticipation of the Beatific Vision. This is the greatest fulfillment of a rational being wherein the doors of the soul are flung open to the infinite fullness of truth. In the vanity of the City of Man, on the other hand, men love themselves to the point of the extinction of truth and thus live in death and misery. The truth will set you free and so in a sense Socrates died as free of a man as you might have reasonably expected a pagan to be in his position.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

playdead 5y ago

> I still think Plato invented Socrates. No, he was an actual historical person. Plato of course wrote a more literary depiction of him, not a direct transcript of his conversations. > If Socrates was so wise, why did he get himself killed in such a dumb way? You should probably actually read the dialogues (at least the Apology and the Crito) and you'll understand what happened. Socrates explicitly chose not to escape prison and to go through with the execution, and he gives his reasons in the Crito.

mensetmanusman 5y ago

We all die, mostly in dumb ways (cancer, sick bed, car accidents, obesity, etc.) The smart way to die?