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>depending on your daily driving patterns This is the key point. Modern highly efficient turbocharged 4 cylinder ICE vehicles can be equally or more efficient

>depending on your daily driving patterns This is the key point. Modern highly efficient turbocharged 4 cylinder ICE vehicles can be equally or more efficient than a hybrid in the right circumstances as well. But the vast majority of driving is city streets <45mph, where ICE can't even come close to BEV.

kongolongo 5y ago
Well in the case of urban areas, outside of some select locations, the charging infra is just not there for BEVs. Even if there were good EV infra in urban areas, a compelling case could be made for improving and upgrading public transportation instead which is going to be more efficient than any personal vehicle - including BEVs.
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  A sidenote but unless public transport vehicles are electric, they won’t be better than battery electric vehicles. Typical diesel buses with typical occupancy rates have worse emissions per passenger mile then, say, a model three with a typical occupancy rate and grid emissions factor in US. BEVs are fantastic, have SOME level of infrastructure literally everywhere with electricity (you literally can charge from a 120V outlet just fine), and we’ll need basically all vehicles to be battery electric to get to where we need to be. It also is trivial to add EV charging infrastructure, which is another under appreciated aspect. It’s easier than installing a streetlight.
  - asdff 5y ago
    Most bus transit systems are in process to convert their fleet to EV. Most today don't run diesel, but CNG.
  - kongolongo 5y ago
    Personal vehicles also have a much larger carbon footprint in general (from manufacturing, maintenance, etc) aside from just emissions during operation of the vehicle.
    - Robotbeat 5y ago
      Operations dominate the total carbon footprint of a gasoline fueled private vehicle. (And public transport buses as well.) so the comparison still is valid. To compete, buses need to also be electric (which is, to be fair!, super easy… electrifying all city buses is incredibly easy compared to electrifying all personal vehicles.)
cycomanic 5y ago
There's been quite a few studies questioning the current focus on EVs with ranges of 400km and more. Largely because they are so heavy and are therefore not very energy efficient. The argument is that most peoples daily commute is less than 50km (in Europe), but they still by an overly heavy EV for the 5-10 times a year they go on longer trips. Instead a plugin hybrid could be much more efficient, because you can use it in EV mode for your commutes, but you can still use the car for long trips, without the significant weight (and corresponding inefficiency) increases of an EV. I suspect this is very much a function of the driving pattern, and I suspect in the mid-term future this will change with more efficient battery technology.
- nicoburns 5y ago
  It will also change as the grid gets excess green energy.
- virgilp 5y ago
  But... are we pretending here that the ICE and gas & all the plumbing etc don't weigh anything? It's not like PHEV have zero additional dead weight. A quick search says "Car engines can weigh up to 1,000 pounds" and "Tesla S has a massive battery weighing 1,200 lbs" - so, are your really saving that much weight with PHEVs?
  - namdnay 5y ago
    Car engines can weigh up to 1000 pounds, but the standard weight is much lower. the VW group 1.4 turbo (probably one of the most common engines around) comes in at 230lb
    - virgilp 5y ago
      I feel like this is a bit of a double standard. If we're questioning "focus on range of 400km or more" then we're already looking at the high-end EVs. Sure there are ligther engines around, but so are lighter batteries, no? Heavy powerful ICEs sell because they're desirable, not because they're the most practical. Long-range EVs sell because they're desirable, not because they're the best match for the average person. I have no doubt that as soon as reasonable city infrastructure exists for EV charging, there'll be a lot of BEVs with small batteries for driving around the city.
mikepurvis 5y ago
I feel like at least some of this depends on whether the ICE in a hybrid is coupled directly to the wheels or not. I believe in all current consumer vehicles it is, but there are other applications like hybrid trains and city buses where the engine is just running a generator at a constant RPM. Surely that kind of configuration would be the absolute best case scenario for ICE efficiency, and probably even for overall system efficiency (with battery loses accounted for) depending on the ratio of city to highway driving.
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  In a Chevy Volt, there’s a mechanism that mechanically attaches the motor to the wheels at speed above 35 mph for greater efficiency but below that it is a pure serial hybrid, disconnected from the wheel directly. But it rarely ever runs the engine. Pretty much only if you run out of charge.
  - mikepurvis 5y ago
    Ah, spiffy— that's neat to know that it can switch modes like that. Looks like this has been a matter of evolution over time, too: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1096942_2016-chevrolet-volt-powertrain-how-it-works-in-electric-hybrid-modes https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1096942_2016-chevrolet-... I guess if you were only connected at higher speeds, that would also greatly simplify the transmission story, since you probably no longer need 1-3.
    - Robotbeat 5y ago
      The Chevy Volt actually uses a continuously variable transmission for that. Makes it sound really weird as there’s not a direct correlation between the sound of the motor and the speed you’re driving.
- tomatocracy 5y ago
  There are some consumer BEVs with range extenders which work this way too eg the BMW i3. However they tend not to be marketed as PHEVs as such.
osigurdson 5y ago
It seems that most driving in city streets by individuals is largely unnecessary: items can be delivered (by EV) instead of picked up and commuting can largely be electronic. Long term, it seems that the most important use case for the personal vehicle could end up being long distance travel.
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  Personal cars act as like a personal room on wheels. Peopl store stuff there and use it as a place to retreat to at work. “Personal vehicle as private space” is a super normie idea, but it’s weird how little play it gets in these conversations. It’s NOT replaced by rideshare or public transit.

kongolongo 5y ago

Well in the case of urban areas, outside of some select locations, the charging infra is just not there for BEVs. Even if there were good EV infra in urban areas, a compelling case could be made for improving and upgrading public transportation instead which is going to be more efficient than any personal vehicle - including BEVs.

Robotbeat 5y ago
A sidenote but unless public transport vehicles are electric, they won’t be better than battery electric vehicles. Typical diesel buses with typical occupancy rates have worse emissions per passenger mile then, say, a model three with a typical occupancy rate and grid emissions factor in US. BEVs are fantastic, have SOME level of infrastructure literally everywhere with electricity (you literally can charge from a 120V outlet just fine), and we’ll need basically all vehicles to be battery electric to get to where we need to be. It also is trivial to add EV charging infrastructure, which is another under appreciated aspect. It’s easier than installing a streetlight.
- asdff 5y ago
  Most bus transit systems are in process to convert their fleet to EV. Most today don't run diesel, but CNG.
- kongolongo 5y ago
  Personal vehicles also have a much larger carbon footprint in general (from manufacturing, maintenance, etc) aside from just emissions during operation of the vehicle.
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    Operations dominate the total carbon footprint of a gasoline fueled private vehicle. (And public transport buses as well.) so the comparison still is valid. To compete, buses need to also be electric (which is, to be fair!, super easy… electrifying all city buses is incredibly easy compared to electrifying all personal vehicles.)

cycomanic 5y ago

There's been quite a few studies questioning the current focus on EVs with ranges of 400km and more. Largely because they are so heavy and are therefore not very energy efficient. The argument is that most peoples daily commute is less than 50km (in Europe), but they still by an overly heavy EV for the 5-10 times a year they go on longer trips. Instead a plugin hybrid could be much more efficient, because you can use it in EV mode for your commutes, but you can still use the car for long trips, without the significant weight (and corresponding inefficiency) increases of an EV. I suspect this is very much a function of the driving pattern, and I suspect in the mid-term future this will change with more efficient battery technology.

nicoburns 5y ago
It will also change as the grid gets excess green energy.
virgilp 5y ago
But... are we pretending here that the ICE and gas & all the plumbing etc don't weigh anything? It's not like PHEV have zero additional dead weight. A quick search says "Car engines can weigh up to 1,000 pounds" and "Tesla S has a massive battery weighing 1,200 lbs" - so, are your really saving that much weight with PHEVs?
- namdnay 5y ago
  Car engines can weigh up to 1000 pounds, but the standard weight is much lower. the VW group 1.4 turbo (probably one of the most common engines around) comes in at 230lb
  - virgilp 5y ago
    I feel like this is a bit of a double standard. If we're questioning "focus on range of 400km or more" then we're already looking at the high-end EVs. Sure there are ligther engines around, but so are lighter batteries, no? Heavy powerful ICEs sell because they're desirable, not because they're the most practical. Long-range EVs sell because they're desirable, not because they're the best match for the average person. I have no doubt that as soon as reasonable city infrastructure exists for EV charging, there'll be a lot of BEVs with small batteries for driving around the city.

mikepurvis 5y ago

I feel like at least some of this depends on whether the ICE in a hybrid is coupled directly to the wheels or not. I believe in all current consumer vehicles it is, but there are other applications like hybrid trains and city buses where the engine is just running a generator at a constant RPM. Surely that kind of configuration would be the absolute best case scenario for ICE efficiency, and probably even for overall system efficiency (with battery loses accounted for) depending on the ratio of city to highway driving.

Robotbeat 5y ago
In a Chevy Volt, there’s a mechanism that mechanically attaches the motor to the wheels at speed above 35 mph for greater efficiency but below that it is a pure serial hybrid, disconnected from the wheel directly. But it rarely ever runs the engine. Pretty much only if you run out of charge.
- mikepurvis 5y ago
  Ah, spiffy— that's neat to know that it can switch modes like that. Looks like this has been a matter of evolution over time, too: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1096942_2016-chevrolet-volt-powertrain-how-it-works-in-electric-hybrid-modes https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1096942_2016-chevrolet-... I guess if you were only connected at higher speeds, that would also greatly simplify the transmission story, since you probably no longer need 1-3.
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    The Chevy Volt actually uses a continuously variable transmission for that. Makes it sound really weird as there’s not a direct correlation between the sound of the motor and the speed you’re driving.
tomatocracy 5y ago
There are some consumer BEVs with range extenders which work this way too eg the BMW i3. However they tend not to be marketed as PHEVs as such.

osigurdson 5y ago

It seems that most driving in city streets by individuals is largely unnecessary: items can be delivered (by EV) instead of picked up and commuting can largely be electronic. Long term, it seems that the most important use case for the personal vehicle could end up being long distance travel.

Robotbeat 5y ago
Personal cars act as like a personal room on wheels. Peopl store stuff there and use it as a place to retreat to at work. “Personal vehicle as private space” is a super normie idea, but it’s weird how little play it gets in these conversations. It’s NOT replaced by rideshare or public transit.