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The FUD accusations seem a bit hasty here. The linked Senate hearing doesn't seem to contain negative things about BEVs (it only criticizes the "narrow focus" o

The FUD accusations seem a bit hasty here. The linked Senate hearing doesn't seem to contain negative things about BEVs (it only criticizes the "narrow focus" on them), but instead opts for including hybrid and hydrogen, with the argument being that "recent data shows that plug-in hybrids can achieve nearly the same or better GHG reductions than BEVs depending on your daily driving patterns, the carbon in the electric grid, the carbon resulting from battery production, and other factors." https://www.energy.senate.gov/services/files/E2EA0E4F-BAD9-452D-99CC-35BC204DE6F0 https://www.energy.senate.gov/services/files/E2EA0E4F-BAD9-4... That may be wrong, but the ars article didn't have any counter arguments.

ramesh31 5y ago
>depending on your daily driving patterns This is the key point. Modern highly efficient turbocharged 4 cylinder ICE vehicles can be equally or more efficient than a hybrid in the right circumstances as well. But the vast majority of driving is city streets <45mph, where ICE can't even come close to BEV.
- kongolongo 5y ago
  Well in the case of urban areas, outside of some select locations, the charging infra is just not there for BEVs. Even if there were good EV infra in urban areas, a compelling case could be made for improving and upgrading public transportation instead which is going to be more efficient than any personal vehicle - including BEVs.
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    A sidenote but unless public transport vehicles are electric, they won’t be better than battery electric vehicles. Typical diesel buses with typical occupancy rates have worse emissions per passenger mile then, say, a model three with a typical occupancy rate and grid emissions factor in US. BEVs are fantastic, have SOME level of infrastructure literally everywhere with electricity (you literally can charge from a 120V outlet just fine), and we’ll need basically all vehicles to be battery electric to get to where we need to be. It also is trivial to add EV charging infrastructure, which is another under appreciated aspect. It’s easier than installing a streetlight.
    - asdff 5y ago
      Most bus transit systems are in process to convert their fleet to EV. Most today don't run diesel, but CNG.
    - kongolongo 5y ago
      Personal vehicles also have a much larger carbon footprint in general (from manufacturing, maintenance, etc) aside from just emissions during operation of the vehicle.
      - Robotbeat 5y ago
        Operations dominate the total carbon footprint of a gasoline fueled private vehicle. (And public transport buses as well.) so the comparison still is valid. To compete, buses need to also be electric (which is, to be fair!, super easy… electrifying all city buses is incredibly easy compared to electrifying all personal vehicles.)
- cycomanic 5y ago
  There's been quite a few studies questioning the current focus on EVs with ranges of 400km and more. Largely because they are so heavy and are therefore not very energy efficient. The argument is that most peoples daily commute is less than 50km (in Europe), but they still by an overly heavy EV for the 5-10 times a year they go on longer trips. Instead a plugin hybrid could be much more efficient, because you can use it in EV mode for your commutes, but you can still use the car for long trips, without the significant weight (and corresponding inefficiency) increases of an EV. I suspect this is very much a function of the driving pattern, and I suspect in the mid-term future this will change with more efficient battery technology.
  - nicoburns 5y ago
    It will also change as the grid gets excess green energy.
  - virgilp 5y ago
    But... are we pretending here that the ICE and gas & all the plumbing etc don't weigh anything? It's not like PHEV have zero additional dead weight. A quick search says "Car engines can weigh up to 1,000 pounds" and "Tesla S has a massive battery weighing 1,200 lbs" - so, are your really saving that much weight with PHEVs?
    - namdnay 5y ago
      Car engines can weigh up to 1000 pounds, but the standard weight is much lower. the VW group 1.4 turbo (probably one of the most common engines around) comes in at 230lb
      - virgilp 5y ago
        I feel like this is a bit of a double standard. If we're questioning "focus on range of 400km or more" then we're already looking at the high-end EVs. Sure there are ligther engines around, but so are lighter batteries, no? Heavy powerful ICEs sell because they're desirable, not because they're the most practical. Long-range EVs sell because they're desirable, not because they're the best match for the average person. I have no doubt that as soon as reasonable city infrastructure exists for EV charging, there'll be a lot of BEVs with small batteries for driving around the city.
- mikepurvis 5y ago
  I feel like at least some of this depends on whether the ICE in a hybrid is coupled directly to the wheels or not. I believe in all current consumer vehicles it is, but there are other applications like hybrid trains and city buses where the engine is just running a generator at a constant RPM. Surely that kind of configuration would be the absolute best case scenario for ICE efficiency, and probably even for overall system efficiency (with battery loses accounted for) depending on the ratio of city to highway driving.
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    In a Chevy Volt, there’s a mechanism that mechanically attaches the motor to the wheels at speed above 35 mph for greater efficiency but below that it is a pure serial hybrid, disconnected from the wheel directly. But it rarely ever runs the engine. Pretty much only if you run out of charge.
    - mikepurvis 5y ago
      Ah, spiffy— that's neat to know that it can switch modes like that. Looks like this has been a matter of evolution over time, too: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1096942_2016-chevrolet-volt-powertrain-how-it-works-in-electric-hybrid-modes https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1096942_2016-chevrolet-... I guess if you were only connected at higher speeds, that would also greatly simplify the transmission story, since you probably no longer need 1-3.
      - Robotbeat 5y ago
        The Chevy Volt actually uses a continuously variable transmission for that. Makes it sound really weird as there’s not a direct correlation between the sound of the motor and the speed you’re driving.
  - tomatocracy 5y ago
    There are some consumer BEVs with range extenders which work this way too eg the BMW i3. However they tend not to be marketed as PHEVs as such.
- osigurdson 5y ago
  It seems that most driving in city streets by individuals is largely unnecessary: items can be delivered (by EV) instead of picked up and commuting can largely be electronic. Long term, it seems that the most important use case for the personal vehicle could end up being long distance travel.
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    Personal cars act as like a personal room on wheels. Peopl store stuff there and use it as a place to retreat to at work. “Personal vehicle as private space” is a super normie idea, but it’s weird how little play it gets in these conversations. It’s NOT replaced by rideshare or public transit.
nkingsy 5y ago
I wonder if these arguments take into account decreased battery life with a smaller battery in a plug in hybrid. From what I know about li-ion, the larger battery should expect many more charge cycles before degradation than the smaller one, given the same power draw. There would have to be some kind of argument that the bigger battery leaves capacity on the table during its life somehow, which would mean the battery is still expected to be useful when the car is retired?
- throw0101a 5y ago
  > I wonder if these arguments take into account decreased battery life with a smaller battery in a plug in hybrid. I would think that it would be primarily a function of how much of the battery is treated as a 'reserve'. If you have 10-20% set aside that is not "useable", regardless of total capacity, then you could get similar cycles. There's also the possibility for using super-caps taking some of the brunt for high discharge (2-4s) events which could help with longevity. How expensive are they for these type of use case?
  - nkingsy 5y ago
    80-20 cycling is important, but discharge rate is as well. If each cell in a 15kw battery discharges at 1c to move a car, each cell in a 45kw battery discharges at .33c. Same goes for charging. Might be diminishing returns, but discharge rates over 1c harm longevity. https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1397110 https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1397110
- NathanielK 5y ago
  It really depends on the battery technology. Lithium-Titanate batteries are starting to be used in hybrid vehicle powertrains. It is much lower energy density than typical BEV batteries. It is also rated at 20x the cycles and can be charged and discharged very quickly with minimal issues. The technology has come a long way from the NiMH cells that die after a decade.
- JKCalhoun 5y ago
  My laymen understanding is that all EV batteries are composed of lots of smaller cells. So a larger Tesla battery is simply more cells, not larger ones. That would put EV's and hybrids on the same level.
tonmoy 5y ago
This assumes power grid won’t keep getting greener or more efficient. Unless we go zero carbon we are just delaying the inevitable and sometimes easy short term carbon reduction actually hampers our efforts to zero emissions.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
Specific facts don't really matter in this case. What matters is that Toyota is engaging in behavior (lobbying against EV adoption mandates) that its prime customer demographics (in the West at least) consider icky. Because of how media works these days writing about that is worth money. There's a lot of rage clicks and eyeball hours to be gleaned by pointing out to these people that yes, Toyota, a brand you people have been putting on a pedestal for a decade will sociopathically act in its own interest including influencing legislators, just like every other bigCo.
dapf 5y ago
May I ask, what business does the Senate have on what car you would be buying?
- LanceH 5y ago
  The effect of carbon emissions isn't limited to only the buyers of a vehicle.
- user_7832 5y ago
  The government is interested in welfare of itself, the state and its resources. If vehicular emissions cause a lot of CO2 emissions and hence climate change, the government will want to protect itself, it’s resources and its people. As for making rules or laws - that’s how the government implements such goals or objectives. (This is a slightly broad answer.)
- bbarnett 5y ago
  Take on action on climate change, that's wrong governing! Take action on climate change? Wrong governing! Just can't win...
- honkycat 5y ago
  May I ask, what business does the senate have on where I dump my toxic waste?
Causality1 5y ago
It would be nice if Toyota actually had any interest in plug in hybrids. Their only one, the Prius Prime, is more expensive than its competitors and offers less than half their range. What's the point of getting a PHEV if I still spend half my commute running on gasoline?
- nicoburns 5y ago
  To be fair Toyota announced their new lineup of BEVs just last month, to be released next year. Toyota is late to the party, but they are on their way.
  - bbarnett 5y ago
    To be fairer, they were very early to the party too. They bet on electric, very early in the game and more than one kind too!
    - Robotbeat 5y ago
      That’s what’s so frustrating! They had the technology and the scale to go nearly all-in on battery electric about 2 decades ago (maybe with gas backup in the early days) but they squandered it.
    - sangnoir 5y ago
      Toyota bet on Electric and Hydrogen, then proceeded to double-down on hydrogen. Then never really went all-in on electric and this sadly lost them their early lead.
      - fomine3 5y ago
        Toyota still bets solid state battery, but I with they bets current li-ion more
- anonuser123456 5y ago
  This year they introduced the RAV4 prime, with 48 miles electric. The Prius prime is still in it's initial design iteration. Major updates occur typically every 7 years for auto manufacturers, so one would expect a new, improved range Prius prime somewhere in the 2023 range.
user_7832 5y ago
Not to exactly counter your point, but Toyota has been doing shady things for a while so I’m not sure if they can be given the benefit of doubt. The things include - going against those new California emissions standards when Trump rolled back emission limits, donating heavily to the politicians who wanted to overthrow the 2020 US elections, and having deals with Panasonic to block easy public access to batteries (better discussion here - https://reddit.com/r/technology/comments/oskyfm/_/h6p62gq/?context=1 https://reddit.com/r/technology/comments/oskyfm/_/h6p62gq/?c...)
- missedthecue 5y ago
  By "donating heavily" you mean $56k across dozens of officials.
  - shadilay 5y ago
    Politicians are cheap.
jillesvangurp 5y ago
There's a long pattern of behavior with Toyota lobbying and arguing against battery EVs and basically spreading FUD about the whole concept. Their marketing for "self charging hybrids" is something they were peddling recently. Sounds awesome until you realize that they did not invent a perpetuum mobile and that instead this means "we burn petrol/diesel to run the engine to charge the battery". That's right, Toyota still makes hybrids that you can't plugin. The 20 year old Prius is a nice example of this "future". Every single mile these things drive are powered by a combustion engine. They have some proper plugin hybrids as well obviously but the marketing here is just awesomely cynical and obviously aimed at drivers who are a bit on the fence about wanting to buy a BEV. They have a single compliance BEV that they are shipping in China only. It's a hard requirement to be active in that market. They make them in comparatively low volume of just slightly over 10K cars, which is of course next to nothing in the Chinese market. Also, that's only slightly less than the total number of hydrogen cars they have ever produced. Which of course they still insist is the future. Except they don't seem to be in any particular hurry building that future. A cynical person might say that they actually don't believe in that enough to put their money where their mouth is. Though they certainly seem to waste no opportunity to invest in marketing to convince people otherwise. They are not actually arguing against BEVs because they believe BEVs are impossible. Obviously they are and essentially all their competitors are proving that by shipping electric buses, trucks, vans, cars, sports cars, etc. in increasingly large volumes. Toyota is merely trying to stem the loss of market share for ICE and hybrid vehicles here while they come up with an alternative. They do that by bad mouthing the whole concept of BEVs, by using misleading marketing like self charging hybrids, arguing that instead we should look at hydrogen, and generally just lobbying and arguing that BEVs are a bad thing. However, at this point it looks more like they are dragging their feet simply because they are late with getting battery supply secured. They couldn't ship anything worth shipping in volumes that matter even if they wanted to and had the factories, designs, etc. ready to go. You need batteries for that and battery producers are fully booked building batteries for their competitors at this point. To fix that they might prefer addressing this with their own solid state batteries. Which is something they've been investing in quite a lot. The only problem: they're not ready yet. However, they are apparently quite close to announcing a proper EV this year which might actually be using this. It will be interesting to see how quick they can go from a concept car to volume production. It will take a lot of investment and time probably. So, one cynical interpretation is that they are just trying to buy some time until they are actually ready to start competing on their own terms. Which clearly they just aren't right now. They have no hydrogen car worth talking about (beyond the few concept cars they shipped). No infrastructure to fuel it. And the one EV they ship in China is clearly nothing more than a compliance car. So self charging hybrids it is for now. If they deliver a BEV with solid state batteries and awesome range (both of which might happen soon), my guess is hydrogen stops being the future at Toyota and self charging hybrids will be phased out as well. But even then, it might be years before they catch up.
nickik 5y ago
Why are we giving them the benefit of the doubt? Toyota has been consistently and EV. They consistently lie about emissions of their hybrids. Their marketing is always spreading FUD about EVs. Worst of all Toyota has been the leader against all kinds of environment laws all over the world.
hokkos 5y ago
The latest ICCT report shows that in the european market fossil car are around 250gCO2eq/km in life cycle analysis, hybrid at 180 and EV at 80, so it seems quite wrong. https://theicct.org/publications/global-LCA-passenger-cars-jul2021 https://theicct.org/publications/global-LCA-passenger-cars-j...

ramesh31 5y ago

>depending on your daily driving patterns This is the key point. Modern highly efficient turbocharged 4 cylinder ICE vehicles can be equally or more efficient than a hybrid in the right circumstances as well. But the vast majority of driving is city streets <45mph, where ICE can't even come close to BEV.

kongolongo 5y ago
Well in the case of urban areas, outside of some select locations, the charging infra is just not there for BEVs. Even if there were good EV infra in urban areas, a compelling case could be made for improving and upgrading public transportation instead which is going to be more efficient than any personal vehicle - including BEVs.
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  A sidenote but unless public transport vehicles are electric, they won’t be better than battery electric vehicles. Typical diesel buses with typical occupancy rates have worse emissions per passenger mile then, say, a model three with a typical occupancy rate and grid emissions factor in US. BEVs are fantastic, have SOME level of infrastructure literally everywhere with electricity (you literally can charge from a 120V outlet just fine), and we’ll need basically all vehicles to be battery electric to get to where we need to be. It also is trivial to add EV charging infrastructure, which is another under appreciated aspect. It’s easier than installing a streetlight.
  - asdff 5y ago
    Most bus transit systems are in process to convert their fleet to EV. Most today don't run diesel, but CNG.
  - kongolongo 5y ago
    Personal vehicles also have a much larger carbon footprint in general (from manufacturing, maintenance, etc) aside from just emissions during operation of the vehicle.
    - Robotbeat 5y ago
      Operations dominate the total carbon footprint of a gasoline fueled private vehicle. (And public transport buses as well.) so the comparison still is valid. To compete, buses need to also be electric (which is, to be fair!, super easy… electrifying all city buses is incredibly easy compared to electrifying all personal vehicles.)
cycomanic 5y ago
There's been quite a few studies questioning the current focus on EVs with ranges of 400km and more. Largely because they are so heavy and are therefore not very energy efficient. The argument is that most peoples daily commute is less than 50km (in Europe), but they still by an overly heavy EV for the 5-10 times a year they go on longer trips. Instead a plugin hybrid could be much more efficient, because you can use it in EV mode for your commutes, but you can still use the car for long trips, without the significant weight (and corresponding inefficiency) increases of an EV. I suspect this is very much a function of the driving pattern, and I suspect in the mid-term future this will change with more efficient battery technology.
- nicoburns 5y ago
  It will also change as the grid gets excess green energy.
- virgilp 5y ago
  But... are we pretending here that the ICE and gas & all the plumbing etc don't weigh anything? It's not like PHEV have zero additional dead weight. A quick search says "Car engines can weigh up to 1,000 pounds" and "Tesla S has a massive battery weighing 1,200 lbs" - so, are your really saving that much weight with PHEVs?
  - namdnay 5y ago
    Car engines can weigh up to 1000 pounds, but the standard weight is much lower. the VW group 1.4 turbo (probably one of the most common engines around) comes in at 230lb
    - virgilp 5y ago
      I feel like this is a bit of a double standard. If we're questioning "focus on range of 400km or more" then we're already looking at the high-end EVs. Sure there are ligther engines around, but so are lighter batteries, no? Heavy powerful ICEs sell because they're desirable, not because they're the most practical. Long-range EVs sell because they're desirable, not because they're the best match for the average person. I have no doubt that as soon as reasonable city infrastructure exists for EV charging, there'll be a lot of BEVs with small batteries for driving around the city.
mikepurvis 5y ago
I feel like at least some of this depends on whether the ICE in a hybrid is coupled directly to the wheels or not. I believe in all current consumer vehicles it is, but there are other applications like hybrid trains and city buses where the engine is just running a generator at a constant RPM. Surely that kind of configuration would be the absolute best case scenario for ICE efficiency, and probably even for overall system efficiency (with battery loses accounted for) depending on the ratio of city to highway driving.
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  In a Chevy Volt, there’s a mechanism that mechanically attaches the motor to the wheels at speed above 35 mph for greater efficiency but below that it is a pure serial hybrid, disconnected from the wheel directly. But it rarely ever runs the engine. Pretty much only if you run out of charge.
  - mikepurvis 5y ago
    Ah, spiffy— that's neat to know that it can switch modes like that. Looks like this has been a matter of evolution over time, too: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1096942_2016-chevrolet-volt-powertrain-how-it-works-in-electric-hybrid-modes https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1096942_2016-chevrolet-... I guess if you were only connected at higher speeds, that would also greatly simplify the transmission story, since you probably no longer need 1-3.
    - Robotbeat 5y ago
      The Chevy Volt actually uses a continuously variable transmission for that. Makes it sound really weird as there’s not a direct correlation between the sound of the motor and the speed you’re driving.
- tomatocracy 5y ago
  There are some consumer BEVs with range extenders which work this way too eg the BMW i3. However they tend not to be marketed as PHEVs as such.
osigurdson 5y ago
It seems that most driving in city streets by individuals is largely unnecessary: items can be delivered (by EV) instead of picked up and commuting can largely be electronic. Long term, it seems that the most important use case for the personal vehicle could end up being long distance travel.
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  Personal cars act as like a personal room on wheels. Peopl store stuff there and use it as a place to retreat to at work. “Personal vehicle as private space” is a super normie idea, but it’s weird how little play it gets in these conversations. It’s NOT replaced by rideshare or public transit.

nkingsy 5y ago

I wonder if these arguments take into account decreased battery life with a smaller battery in a plug in hybrid. From what I know about li-ion, the larger battery should expect many more charge cycles before degradation than the smaller one, given the same power draw. There would have to be some kind of argument that the bigger battery leaves capacity on the table during its life somehow, which would mean the battery is still expected to be useful when the car is retired?

throw0101a 5y ago
> I wonder if these arguments take into account decreased battery life with a smaller battery in a plug in hybrid. I would think that it would be primarily a function of how much of the battery is treated as a 'reserve'. If you have 10-20% set aside that is not "useable", regardless of total capacity, then you could get similar cycles. There's also the possibility for using super-caps taking some of the brunt for high discharge (2-4s) events which could help with longevity. How expensive are they for these type of use case?
- nkingsy 5y ago
  80-20 cycling is important, but discharge rate is as well. If each cell in a 15kw battery discharges at 1c to move a car, each cell in a 45kw battery discharges at .33c. Same goes for charging. Might be diminishing returns, but discharge rates over 1c harm longevity. https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1397110 https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1397110
NathanielK 5y ago
It really depends on the battery technology. Lithium-Titanate batteries are starting to be used in hybrid vehicle powertrains. It is much lower energy density than typical BEV batteries. It is also rated at 20x the cycles and can be charged and discharged very quickly with minimal issues. The technology has come a long way from the NiMH cells that die after a decade.
JKCalhoun 5y ago
My laymen understanding is that all EV batteries are composed of lots of smaller cells. So a larger Tesla battery is simply more cells, not larger ones. That would put EV's and hybrids on the same level.

tonmoy 5y ago

This assumes power grid won’t keep getting greener or more efficient. Unless we go zero carbon we are just delaying the inevitable and sometimes easy short term carbon reduction actually hampers our efforts to zero emissions.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

Specific facts don't really matter in this case. What matters is that Toyota is engaging in behavior (lobbying against EV adoption mandates) that its prime customer demographics (in the West at least) consider icky. Because of how media works these days writing about that is worth money. There's a lot of rage clicks and eyeball hours to be gleaned by pointing out to these people that yes, Toyota, a brand you people have been putting on a pedestal for a decade will sociopathically act in its own interest including influencing legislators, just like every other bigCo.

dapf 5y ago

May I ask, what business does the Senate have on what car you would be buying?

LanceH 5y ago
The effect of carbon emissions isn't limited to only the buyers of a vehicle.
user_7832 5y ago
The government is interested in welfare of itself, the state and its resources. If vehicular emissions cause a lot of CO2 emissions and hence climate change, the government will want to protect itself, it’s resources and its people. As for making rules or laws - that’s how the government implements such goals or objectives. (This is a slightly broad answer.)
bbarnett 5y ago
Take on action on climate change, that's wrong governing! Take action on climate change? Wrong governing! Just can't win...
honkycat 5y ago
May I ask, what business does the senate have on where I dump my toxic waste?

Causality1 5y ago

It would be nice if Toyota actually had any interest in plug in hybrids. Their only one, the Prius Prime, is more expensive than its competitors and offers less than half their range. What's the point of getting a PHEV if I still spend half my commute running on gasoline?

nicoburns 5y ago
To be fair Toyota announced their new lineup of BEVs just last month, to be released next year. Toyota is late to the party, but they are on their way.
- bbarnett 5y ago
  To be fairer, they were very early to the party too. They bet on electric, very early in the game and more than one kind too!
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    That’s what’s so frustrating! They had the technology and the scale to go nearly all-in on battery electric about 2 decades ago (maybe with gas backup in the early days) but they squandered it.
  - sangnoir 5y ago
    Toyota bet on Electric and Hydrogen, then proceeded to double-down on hydrogen. Then never really went all-in on electric and this sadly lost them their early lead.
    - fomine3 5y ago
      Toyota still bets solid state battery, but I with they bets current li-ion more
anonuser123456 5y ago
This year they introduced the RAV4 prime, with 48 miles electric. The Prius prime is still in it's initial design iteration. Major updates occur typically every 7 years for auto manufacturers, so one would expect a new, improved range Prius prime somewhere in the 2023 range.

user_7832 5y ago

Not to exactly counter your point, but Toyota has been doing shady things for a while so I’m not sure if they can be given the benefit of doubt. The things include - going against those new California emissions standards when Trump rolled back emission limits, donating heavily to the politicians who wanted to overthrow the 2020 US elections, and having deals with Panasonic to block easy public access to batteries (better discussion here - https://reddit.com/r/technology/comments/oskyfm/_/h6p62gq/?context=1 https://reddit.com/r/technology/comments/oskyfm/_/h6p62gq/?c...)

missedthecue 5y ago
By "donating heavily" you mean $56k across dozens of officials.
- shadilay 5y ago
  Politicians are cheap.

jillesvangurp 5y ago

There's a long pattern of behavior with Toyota lobbying and arguing against battery EVs and basically spreading FUD about the whole concept. Their marketing for "self charging hybrids" is something they were peddling recently. Sounds awesome until you realize that they did not invent a perpetuum mobile and that instead this means "we burn petrol/diesel to run the engine to charge the battery". That's right, Toyota still makes hybrids that you can't plugin. The 20 year old Prius is a nice example of this "future". Every single mile these things drive are powered by a combustion engine. They have some proper plugin hybrids as well obviously but the marketing here is just awesomely cynical and obviously aimed at drivers who are a bit on the fence about wanting to buy a BEV. They have a single compliance BEV that they are shipping in China only. It's a hard requirement to be active in that market. They make them in comparatively low volume of just slightly over 10K cars, which is of course next to nothing in the Chinese market. Also, that's only slightly less than the total number of hydrogen cars they have ever produced. Which of course they still insist is the future. Except they don't seem to be in any particular hurry building that future. A cynical person might say that they actually don't believe in that enough to put their money where their mouth is. Though they certainly seem to waste no opportunity to invest in marketing to convince people otherwise. They are not actually arguing against BEVs because they believe BEVs are impossible. Obviously they are and essentially all their competitors are proving that by shipping electric buses, trucks, vans, cars, sports cars, etc. in increasingly large volumes. Toyota is merely trying to stem the loss of market share for ICE and hybrid vehicles here while they come up with an alternative. They do that by bad mouthing the whole concept of BEVs, by using misleading marketing like self charging hybrids, arguing that instead we should look at hydrogen, and generally just lobbying and arguing that BEVs are a bad thing. However, at this point it looks more like they are dragging their feet simply because they are late with getting battery supply secured. They couldn't ship anything worth shipping in volumes that matter even if they wanted to and had the factories, designs, etc. ready to go. You need batteries for that and battery producers are fully booked building batteries for their competitors at this point. To fix that they might prefer addressing this with their own solid state batteries. Which is something they've been investing in quite a lot. The only problem: they're not ready yet. However, they are apparently quite close to announcing a proper EV this year which might actually be using this. It will be interesting to see how quick they can go from a concept car to volume production. It will take a lot of investment and time probably. So, one cynical interpretation is that they are just trying to buy some time until they are actually ready to start competing on their own terms. Which clearly they just aren't right now. They have no hydrogen car worth talking about (beyond the few concept cars they shipped). No infrastructure to fuel it. And the one EV they ship in China is clearly nothing more than a compliance car. So self charging hybrids it is for now. If they deliver a BEV with solid state batteries and awesome range (both of which might happen soon), my guess is hydrogen stops being the future at Toyota and self charging hybrids will be phased out as well. But even then, it might be years before they catch up.

nickik 5y ago

Why are we giving them the benefit of the doubt? Toyota has been consistently and EV. They consistently lie about emissions of their hybrids. Their marketing is always spreading FUD about EVs. Worst of all Toyota has been the leader against all kinds of environment laws all over the world.

hokkos 5y ago

The latest ICCT report shows that in the european market fossil car are around 250gCO2eq/km in life cycle analysis, hybrid at 180 and EV at 80, so it seems quite wrong. https://theicct.org/publications/global-LCA-passenger-cars-jul2021 https://theicct.org/publications/global-LCA-passenger-cars-j...