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that’s a bold prediction. i don’t think it’s going to happen. building a car is about more than just the engine. It’s about the supply chain, it’s about parts,

that’s a bold prediction. i don’t think it’s going to happen. building a car is about more than just the engine. It’s about the supply chain, it’s about parts, it’s about service. Toyota and Honda have a lot more experience in this area than a new-ish car manufacturer. They also build reliable, great cars that I like owning and driving. I like how everyone is up in arms about Toyota doing something [that serves their interest; in a legal way] to influence the government but people pretend Tesla is such a success story, ignoring all the money the govn has pumped into it.

sixQuarks 5y ago
So you’re ok with Toyota spreading FUD as long as it’s legal. Got it. As for Tesla’s government money, ev credits are available to all manufacturers, it’s not Tesla’s fault others can’t make compelling electric vehicles. All other government loans have been paid back in full. Maybe you should read more than just headlines
- rantwasp 5y ago
  is it FUD though? were do you draw the line between legal and illegal. right or wrong? I think it’s absolutely expected for Toyota to attempt to protect their financial interests.
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    It’s legal for them to do so, I just think they’re bad people for doing it. Attempting to slow down the de-carbonization of our transit because your company bet wrong is just evil, no way around it.
    - rantwasp 5y ago
      i agree with you in principle, but (there’s always a but) there are other more impactful things that can be done to cut down carbon emissions (modern cars are already stupid-efficient). Who has the mora authority to declare that Toyota should roll over and die to attain some goal that may or may not be achievable?
      - ashtonkem 5y ago
        > Who has the mora authority to declare that Toyota should roll over and die to attain some goal that may or may not be achievable? False dilemma. Toyota could start making EVs instead. If they decide to (stupidly) refuse to do that, then their death would be the result of their own stubbornness, not a declared death sentence from someone else. And as far as who has the moral authority? Anyone who stands to face the harms of global warming and not profit off it.
        rantwasp 5y ago
        lol no. business decisions are driven by economic incentives. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong but that’s the way the world works today. you have the authority to decide only to the point of electing politicians that push what you consider to be the right thing. This takes time. How would you feel if you would personally be targeted in an effort to reduce global warming? While at the same time other actors (that basically do the same thing and/or are protected by regulations do way worse? https://thedigitalmomentum.com/the-top-five-co2-emitting-industries-in-the-globe/ https://thedigitalmomentum.com/the-top-five-co2-emitting-ind...) That EV you dream of as stopping global warming may overall be responsible for more CO2 emission that my “normal” car depending on how the power you use has been generated.
        ashtonkem 5y ago
        > you have the authority to decide only to the point of electing politicians that push what you consider to be the right thing. This takes time. Funny, a few posts ago you were talking about moral authority. Oh how the goal posts move! Also, as a society we’ve already decided to use our legal authority to incentivize EVs, that’s what Toyota is whining about! They have lost both the political and the social (“hearts and minds”) argument, and are trying to use bribes to get their way again. > How would you feel if you would personally be targeted in an effort to reduce global warming? Drawing a parallel between a person being “targeted” (loaded word) and a corporation making the wrong decisions is extremely weird. Toyota was not targeted, they failed to take advantage of the incentives available to them. Ford, Hyundai, VW, Porsche, and Tesla all took advantage of the programs available to them, Toyota did not. That’s less “targeted” and more “made a mistake”. > That EV you dream of as stopping global warming may overall be responsible for more CO2 emission that my “normal” car depending on how the power you use has been generated. This is actually oil industry propaganda, good to see that it still has legs. EPA estimates show that an EV is marginally cleaner than a gasoline car for a pure coal powered grid for total emissions. Of course you have to live in West Virginia before “100% coal power” is anywhere close to an accurate approximation of what your power grid looks like. Also, it’s not a stretch to say that Toyota’s fuel cells are powered by oil. The primary source of commercial Hydrogen is from natural gas.

sixQuarks 5y ago

So you’re ok with Toyota spreading FUD as long as it’s legal. Got it. As for Tesla’s government money, ev credits are available to all manufacturers, it’s not Tesla’s fault others can’t make compelling electric vehicles. All other government loans have been paid back in full. Maybe you should read more than just headlines

rantwasp 5y ago
is it FUD though? were do you draw the line between legal and illegal. right or wrong? I think it’s absolutely expected for Toyota to attempt to protect their financial interests.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  It’s legal for them to do so, I just think they’re bad people for doing it. Attempting to slow down the de-carbonization of our transit because your company bet wrong is just evil, no way around it.
  - rantwasp 5y ago
    i agree with you in principle, but (there’s always a but) there are other more impactful things that can be done to cut down carbon emissions (modern cars are already stupid-efficient). Who has the mora authority to declare that Toyota should roll over and die to attain some goal that may or may not be achievable?
    - ashtonkem 5y ago
      > Who has the mora authority to declare that Toyota should roll over and die to attain some goal that may or may not be achievable? False dilemma. Toyota could start making EVs instead. If they decide to (stupidly) refuse to do that, then their death would be the result of their own stubbornness, not a declared death sentence from someone else. And as far as who has the moral authority? Anyone who stands to face the harms of global warming and not profit off it.
      - rantwasp 5y ago
        lol no. business decisions are driven by economic incentives. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong but that’s the way the world works today. you have the authority to decide only to the point of electing politicians that push what you consider to be the right thing. This takes time. How would you feel if you would personally be targeted in an effort to reduce global warming? While at the same time other actors (that basically do the same thing and/or are protected by regulations do way worse? https://thedigitalmomentum.com/the-top-five-co2-emitting-industries-in-the-globe/ https://thedigitalmomentum.com/the-top-five-co2-emitting-ind...) That EV you dream of as stopping global warming may overall be responsible for more CO2 emission that my “normal” car depending on how the power you use has been generated.
        ashtonkem 5y ago
        > you have the authority to decide only to the point of electing politicians that push what you consider to be the right thing. This takes time. Funny, a few posts ago you were talking about moral authority. Oh how the goal posts move! Also, as a society we’ve already decided to use our legal authority to incentivize EVs, that’s what Toyota is whining about! They have lost both the political and the social (“hearts and minds”) argument, and are trying to use bribes to get their way again. > How would you feel if you would personally be targeted in an effort to reduce global warming? Drawing a parallel between a person being “targeted” (loaded word) and a corporation making the wrong decisions is extremely weird. Toyota was not targeted, they failed to take advantage of the incentives available to them. Ford, Hyundai, VW, Porsche, and Tesla all took advantage of the programs available to them, Toyota did not. That’s less “targeted” and more “made a mistake”. > That EV you dream of as stopping global warming may overall be responsible for more CO2 emission that my “normal” car depending on how the power you use has been generated. This is actually oil industry propaganda, good to see that it still has legs. EPA estimates show that an EV is marginally cleaner than a gasoline car for a pure coal powered grid for total emissions. Of course you have to live in West Virginia before “100% coal power” is anywhere close to an accurate approximation of what your power grid looks like. Also, it’s not a stretch to say that Toyota’s fuel cells are powered by oil. The primary source of commercial Hydrogen is from natural gas.