3 ms·

Why would you audit processes when the allegation is that someone got infected because she wasn't following the processes?

mschuster91 5y ago
Part of a process audit is to check compliance, e.g. by counting if there are enough metal gloves per employee - including measuring all hand sizes to check if really every employee even has access to a fitting glove -, by checking if supply orders for PPE match expected consumption, by interviewing current and especially former employees and by checking emails for evidence of staff complaints.
frob 5y ago
It's so that they can figure out why the process wasn't being followed and how it can be improved. Nothing is perfect and accidents are a great catalyst for reexamining your procedures. What could change to make it more likely that the process would be followed? Could we put signs all around places with prion research? Could we implement a buddy system whenever we work with prions? Do metal gloves need to be hung in visible place throughout the lab? Do we keep containers of bleach accessible for when someone pricks their finger? Do we have enough of them and are they visible enough?
- fallingknife 5y ago
  The last thing you need is more bureaucracy. If you want the rules to be followed, you punish the people who don't. That's it. It doesn't take 3 months. It doesn't take any audits or committees. If there is a rule following problem, you enforce the rules. People will find a way to comply if they know they will pay the price if they don't.
da_big_ghey 5y ago
if we have some dangerous prion, and some person is bypassing procedure, that still is needing some evaluation. prion escape and becoming common in populations would be a large disaster.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  > prion escape and becoming common in populations would be a large disaster. IIRC, all known prion diseases are only transmissible by ingestion of infectious particles - meaning, eating from infected parts of a carcass, urine/feces and blood.
  - mannykannot 5y ago
    There does not seem to have been any ingestion in these two cases. Still, they do not involve transmission through air or through casual contact, but see the last couple of sentences here with regard to the former: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27984942 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27984942
marcellus23 5y ago
She hadn't been trained in how to handle prions. Doesn't that sound like a process problem to you?
jjk166 5y ago
Someone not following a process is a failure of the process. The process should include proper training and regular oversight to ensure that the process is being followed - an audit will reveal if that training and oversight is in place. If you trace any accident back far enough, you'll eventually get to a point where it could've been prevented with better planning.

mschuster91 5y ago

Part of a process audit is to check compliance, e.g. by counting if there are enough metal gloves per employee - including measuring all hand sizes to check if really every employee even has access to a fitting glove -, by checking if supply orders for PPE match expected consumption, by interviewing current and especially former employees and by checking emails for evidence of staff complaints.

frob 5y ago

It's so that they can figure out why the process wasn't being followed and how it can be improved. Nothing is perfect and accidents are a great catalyst for reexamining your procedures. What could change to make it more likely that the process would be followed? Could we put signs all around places with prion research? Could we implement a buddy system whenever we work with prions? Do metal gloves need to be hung in visible place throughout the lab? Do we keep containers of bleach accessible for when someone pricks their finger? Do we have enough of them and are they visible enough?

fallingknife 5y ago
The last thing you need is more bureaucracy. If you want the rules to be followed, you punish the people who don't. That's it. It doesn't take 3 months. It doesn't take any audits or committees. If there is a rule following problem, you enforce the rules. People will find a way to comply if they know they will pay the price if they don't.

da_big_ghey 5y ago

if we have some dangerous prion, and some person is bypassing procedure, that still is needing some evaluation. prion escape and becoming common in populations would be a large disaster.

mschuster91 5y ago
> prion escape and becoming common in populations would be a large disaster. IIRC, all known prion diseases are only transmissible by ingestion of infectious particles - meaning, eating from infected parts of a carcass, urine/feces and blood.
- mannykannot 5y ago
  There does not seem to have been any ingestion in these two cases. Still, they do not involve transmission through air or through casual contact, but see the last couple of sentences here with regard to the former: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27984942 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27984942

marcellus23 5y ago

She hadn't been trained in how to handle prions. Doesn't that sound like a process problem to you?

jjk166 5y ago

Someone not following a process is a failure of the process. The process should include proper training and regular oversight to ensure that the process is being followed - an audit will reveal if that training and oversight is in place. If you trace any accident back far enough, you'll eventually get to a point where it could've been prevented with better planning.