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In Switzerland it is a level of insanity above this. Major ISPs are now promising 10Gbit and 25Gbit fibre to the home, but only one ISP natively supports IPv6 (

In Switzerland it is a level of insanity above this. Major ISPs are now promising 10Gbit and 25Gbit fibre to the home, but only one ISP natively supports IPv6 (init7, not the country's major provider Swisscom). This is utterly bonkers. While the ethernet cables they give out can likely do 10Gbit (but definitely not 25Gbit) very few people have 10Gbit-capable ethernet or wifi chipsets and there is no way they will actually be able to routinely transmit data at this speed. Swisscom do 6rd and don't offer static IPv6 either presumably because of how 6rd works. So it is a pain to configure anything except using their own box.

awruko 5y ago
what do you mean by natively? I am using iway and can clearly use ipv6. Most of the whatismyip sites give me my ipv6.
- ubanholzer 5y ago
  Depends on the location. If iWay does have a POP in your network, they can offer native IPv6 because their DHCP does support it. If they don't have a POP, they often (need to) use Swisscom to "proxy" your packages (like Crossover7). And because the Swisscom DHCP Server can't assign IPv6 leases currently, your router needs to tunnel IPv6 packages in IPv4 packages to the infrastructure of iWay. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/6rd https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/6rd
dmurray 5y ago
> While the ethernet cables they give out can likely do 10Gbit (but definitely not 25Gbit) very few people have 10Gbit-capable ethernet or wifi chipsets and there is no way they will actually be able to routinely transmit data at this speed. Bit of future proofing, the fibre cables will be in the ground for 10 years and who knows whether consumer devices can routinely do 10G by then. The cost is dominated by the price of digging up the roads, not by sticking a few extra strands in the ducts.
- zahllos 5y ago
  Yeah future proofing makes sense. I'd hope they'd do that anyway if only because once they get out of my building it isn't just a fibre cable for me but for business connectivity too. There's a couple of data centres in my town that host for local businesses so the interconnect need is there. It just feels a bit dishonest to sell a 10G connection and tell the user to speed test on the router's web portal when their PC won't get remotely near that.
lukeqsee 5y ago
Green.ch supports IPv6, and they include a /48 when you have a static IP. I've wanted to switch to init7 for a longtime, but Green's service and price is hard to argue with.
- galphanet 5y ago
  I agree, it s one of the cheapest, they deliver and have custom solutions on request. The cheapest is monzoon which offer dsl and ftth without contract (month-by-month basis)
brnt 5y ago
At least you can get speedy connections. Here in the NL offers still start at 40/5-type connections, and ISP have you pay premiums to get 300/500 Mbit. If you're lucky, you can sell your first born for 1Gbit.
- dathinab 5y ago
  Offers starting at 40/5 is already good, in Berlin offers currently start at 10/2 with 100GB volume limit for 25€/Month with 2 year minimum contract duration. (Through to be fair you get 50/10 for 30€/Month without limit.)
- superice 5y ago
  Pff, I pay €40/month for my 1Gbit/s FttH Tweak connection. You’re painting a very bleak picture, but NL internet isn’t that bad unless you only have an old ADSL-style phone line, and that is rare nowadays.
  - brnt 5y ago
    Because those small affordable ISPs are only available in tiny service areas. Most people still must choose between DSL and cable (horribly expensive), and fibre from KPN if they're lucky. Offering connections in the Mbit range anno 2021 _is_ bleak, compared to some countries.
    - superice 5y ago
      DSL is indeed a joke, but Ziggo cable and KPN fiber together have near universal availability these days. Cable isn't that much more expensive than a dedicated fiber but tends to come bundled with TV and phone only. This paints a pretty good picture: https://tweakers.net/ext/i/2003127256.jpeg https://tweakers.net/ext/i/2003127256.jpeg, which comes from this article in 2019: https://tweakers.net/nieuws/158414/aanleg-van-glasvezel-naar-woningen-komt-weer-op-stoom.html https://tweakers.net/nieuws/158414/aanleg-van-glasvezel-naar...
- zahllos 5y ago
  It isn't everywhere in Switzerland. I just lucked in to moving to a town that happens to have a lot of fibre underneath. Plenty of places here are stuck on some form of broadband.
ThePadawan 5y ago
Speaking of insanity: I'm a customer with init7. Great service! You know what's not great? I live in a new building. It was built in ~2015. It's not even on Google Street View. They decided to go with a commercial solution ("digitalStrom") for Ethernet that caps out at 100Mbit. I now have to use Wifi to get anywhere close to the 1Gbit I pay for. The lack of forethought (or the grift for the company that bought that tech) is astounding. Thank god I only rent.
- moooo99 5y ago
  Reading this in Germany, I'd happily overpay for a 1Gbit connection even though I couldn't use it. Unfortunately, the fastest available connection here is a 50mbps, and thats a significant improvement. Three years ago, we were limited to a 16mbps connection for a household of four. But I wouldn't be surprised if my 50mbps connection is as expensive as your connection, presumably while offering worse service.
  - ubanholzer 5y ago
    60€ / month plus a one-time-fee of 100€. if you want 25 gbit/s (and if the POP supports it), you pay a one-time-fee of 310€. But the availability is currently very restricted to urban regions
    - dathinab 5y ago
      A 50Mb/10Mb connection often cost around 30€/Month + 70€ one time in Germany but: - You often only get it in city areas, I say city areas because metro areas include small settlements around the city still connected with the metro. And in many experience it's quite likely the best you can get in that settlements is either way less or unreliable high latency LTE. - There are faster contracts like 250Mb/40Mb for 45€/Month but availability is spotty, and companies will sell it to you even if not technical available. E.g. most 100Mb contracts say serving 60Mb would still be "valid" for your 100Mb contract. - It's not uncommon that many DSL of different people will go through choke points in areas with high population density but not that much money, so speeds dropping sometime randomly noticeable are not uncommon. - It's common that if there are technical problems (which are not uncommon when switching providers) it can take days to fix them, my previous (small) company went a month without proper internet connection due to this, they fell back to using a LTE router temporary but they had to buy it themself it wasn't provided by the internet provider. A good point is that all the internet contracts tend include a land line phone number and tend to have "unlimited" data volume (which isn't always truly unlimited, but close enough to unlimited). Frequent stories include internet being so bad that it frequently is short term temporary(<15min) unavailable, randomly temporary super slow internet, or a supposedly 100Mb internet connection frequently slowing down to close to 1Mb causing video conferences to fail. And that is in the city. Outside of cities it's common to have insanely slow internet all the time to a point that people fall back to use LTE->WLAN routers, but then it's common to hear that the LTE is frequently overloaded around "rush hours" making people at the "outer ranges" of the closest LTE tower lose connection. The state of the German internet infrastructure is kinda a sad joke. Through I should note that things differ depending on the area of Germany you are in. Anyway the best thing I can buy (and get) in my area (in a relatively wealthy area of Berlin) is ~60Mb/10Mb connection which is somewhat reliable (fails 0-4 times every day for ~1-5min each, but it only happens between 2am and 6am, so ok, not a problem and at least one failure is probably the router). EDIT: Just to be clear the biggest joke are not the ISP's but the politicians which let themself be bribed not only to tolerate but actively support this situation. Through it's also incompetence not to long ago some politician responsible for making regulations in this area stated (and believed) that ???Kb (forgot the actual value but it was less then 1Mb) is high speed internet. It's sad if politician are stuck years in the past and are so arrogant and incompetent that educating them about their mistake is destined to fail.
ShrigmaMale 5y ago
> 10Gbit and 25Gbit fibre to the home That is suprising, why? Can most people even use that much speed? Netflix only need so much bandwith. Good for homelabs, just most people don't have them.
- hansel_der 5y ago
  iirc fibre7 ceo said that they did it "because they can", to put pressure on the incumbant telcos and also to reduce complexity with simply connecting customers at the best speed supported by the infrastructure.
- GoblinSlayer 5y ago
  An average webapp loads half of npm on first visit then makes about a million additional requests to make all the frameworks happy. When do you think can work?
  - Sebb767 5y ago
    For this, latency is the real problem. Even a 10 MB script bundle will be reasonably fast to load on 50 Mb/s; getting all those requests out is what takes time.
- mciancia 5y ago
  Well, why _not_ offer this if it's a similar cost the ISP?
kiwijamo 5y ago
Swisscom as a older RSP probably is sitting on a huge block of IPv4 addresses, whereas newer RSPs usually have much smaller blocks. Hence older RSPs tend to continue with IPv4 as they have enough addresses to do this, whereas newer ones are pretty much forced to migrated to CG-NAT/IPv6 to conserve their IPv4 space. I see this here in New Zealand too: Spark, which was previously the state owned Telecom New Zealand, has so many IPv4 addresses they have done nothing at all in regards to IPv6 because they have no economic incentive to do so. In contrast, many of the other RSPs here have much smaller IPv4 blocks so CG-NAT/IPv6 is becoming the norm now for the smaller/newer RSPs.
zepearl 5y ago
> but only one ISP natively supports IPv6 Personally I'm using as a provider "solnet.ch" (I'm their customer since a very long time and so far I'm very happy with them - it's a small provider headquartered in the canton Solothurn, but my connection originates from the canton Zurich), and so far it doesn't seem that they'll offer IPv6, so this matches your statement. On the other hand, if I remember correctly, I think (not sure and I cannot check this now) that I did have to modify my DNS configuration of my email server related to IPv6 when my parents changed from Swisscom to Sunrise (in 2020 or 2019 - my mother uses my email-server and the IPv6-entries weren't configured correctly) => can it be that Sunrise is using IPv6 as well, at least partially? I might be wrong, especially regarding what you mean with "natively" (maybe you mean that customers get "only" an IPv6-address, the access to the IPv4-network being fully relayed at the ISP-level?).
- zahllos 5y ago
  So by natively I mean that if you look at the packets there is only ipv6. 6rd, hurricane electric and so on, you can use these tunnels to get the functional equivalent of having IPv6 at home, but between you and the point-of-presence (the other end of the line your router is connected to where Swisscom decide to do something with your packet) is IPv4. Customers actively have to opt in to 6rd on Swisscom and actively have to set up hurricane electric and other IPv6 tunnels. Which means connectivity is limited to people who are going to do that, so service providers on the internet must offer IPv4.

awruko 5y ago

what do you mean by natively? I am using iway and can clearly use ipv6. Most of the whatismyip sites give me my ipv6.

ubanholzer 5y ago
Depends on the location. If iWay does have a POP in your network, they can offer native IPv6 because their DHCP does support it. If they don't have a POP, they often (need to) use Swisscom to "proxy" your packages (like Crossover7). And because the Swisscom DHCP Server can't assign IPv6 leases currently, your router needs to tunnel IPv6 packages in IPv4 packages to the infrastructure of iWay. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/6rd https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/6rd

dmurray 5y ago

> While the ethernet cables they give out can likely do 10Gbit (but definitely not 25Gbit) very few people have 10Gbit-capable ethernet or wifi chipsets and there is no way they will actually be able to routinely transmit data at this speed. Bit of future proofing, the fibre cables will be in the ground for 10 years and who knows whether consumer devices can routinely do 10G by then. The cost is dominated by the price of digging up the roads, not by sticking a few extra strands in the ducts.

zahllos 5y ago
Yeah future proofing makes sense. I'd hope they'd do that anyway if only because once they get out of my building it isn't just a fibre cable for me but for business connectivity too. There's a couple of data centres in my town that host for local businesses so the interconnect need is there. It just feels a bit dishonest to sell a 10G connection and tell the user to speed test on the router's web portal when their PC won't get remotely near that.

lukeqsee 5y ago

Green.ch supports IPv6, and they include a /48 when you have a static IP. I've wanted to switch to init7 for a longtime, but Green's service and price is hard to argue with.

galphanet 5y ago
I agree, it s one of the cheapest, they deliver and have custom solutions on request. The cheapest is monzoon which offer dsl and ftth without contract (month-by-month basis)

brnt 5y ago

At least you can get speedy connections. Here in the NL offers still start at 40/5-type connections, and ISP have you pay premiums to get 300/500 Mbit. If you're lucky, you can sell your first born for 1Gbit.

dathinab 5y ago
Offers starting at 40/5 is already good, in Berlin offers currently start at 10/2 with 100GB volume limit for 25€/Month with 2 year minimum contract duration. (Through to be fair you get 50/10 for 30€/Month without limit.)
superice 5y ago
Pff, I pay €40/month for my 1Gbit/s FttH Tweak connection. You’re painting a very bleak picture, but NL internet isn’t that bad unless you only have an old ADSL-style phone line, and that is rare nowadays.
- brnt 5y ago
  Because those small affordable ISPs are only available in tiny service areas. Most people still must choose between DSL and cable (horribly expensive), and fibre from KPN if they're lucky. Offering connections in the Mbit range anno 2021 _is_ bleak, compared to some countries.
  - superice 5y ago
    DSL is indeed a joke, but Ziggo cable and KPN fiber together have near universal availability these days. Cable isn't that much more expensive than a dedicated fiber but tends to come bundled with TV and phone only. This paints a pretty good picture: https://tweakers.net/ext/i/2003127256.jpeg https://tweakers.net/ext/i/2003127256.jpeg, which comes from this article in 2019: https://tweakers.net/nieuws/158414/aanleg-van-glasvezel-naar-woningen-komt-weer-op-stoom.html https://tweakers.net/nieuws/158414/aanleg-van-glasvezel-naar...
zahllos 5y ago
It isn't everywhere in Switzerland. I just lucked in to moving to a town that happens to have a lot of fibre underneath. Plenty of places here are stuck on some form of broadband.

ThePadawan 5y ago

Speaking of insanity: I'm a customer with init7. Great service! You know what's not great? I live in a new building. It was built in ~2015. It's not even on Google Street View. They decided to go with a commercial solution ("digitalStrom") for Ethernet that caps out at 100Mbit. I now have to use Wifi to get anywhere close to the 1Gbit I pay for. The lack of forethought (or the grift for the company that bought that tech) is astounding. Thank god I only rent.

moooo99 5y ago
Reading this in Germany, I'd happily overpay for a 1Gbit connection even though I couldn't use it. Unfortunately, the fastest available connection here is a 50mbps, and thats a significant improvement. Three years ago, we were limited to a 16mbps connection for a household of four. But I wouldn't be surprised if my 50mbps connection is as expensive as your connection, presumably while offering worse service.
- ubanholzer 5y ago
  60€ / month plus a one-time-fee of 100€. if you want 25 gbit/s (and if the POP supports it), you pay a one-time-fee of 310€. But the availability is currently very restricted to urban regions
  - dathinab 5y ago
    A 50Mb/10Mb connection often cost around 30€/Month + 70€ one time in Germany but: - You often only get it in city areas, I say city areas because metro areas include small settlements around the city still connected with the metro. And in many experience it's quite likely the best you can get in that settlements is either way less or unreliable high latency LTE. - There are faster contracts like 250Mb/40Mb for 45€/Month but availability is spotty, and companies will sell it to you even if not technical available. E.g. most 100Mb contracts say serving 60Mb would still be "valid" for your 100Mb contract. - It's not uncommon that many DSL of different people will go through choke points in areas with high population density but not that much money, so speeds dropping sometime randomly noticeable are not uncommon. - It's common that if there are technical problems (which are not uncommon when switching providers) it can take days to fix them, my previous (small) company went a month without proper internet connection due to this, they fell back to using a LTE router temporary but they had to buy it themself it wasn't provided by the internet provider. A good point is that all the internet contracts tend include a land line phone number and tend to have "unlimited" data volume (which isn't always truly unlimited, but close enough to unlimited). Frequent stories include internet being so bad that it frequently is short term temporary(<15min) unavailable, randomly temporary super slow internet, or a supposedly 100Mb internet connection frequently slowing down to close to 1Mb causing video conferences to fail. And that is in the city. Outside of cities it's common to have insanely slow internet all the time to a point that people fall back to use LTE->WLAN routers, but then it's common to hear that the LTE is frequently overloaded around "rush hours" making people at the "outer ranges" of the closest LTE tower lose connection. The state of the German internet infrastructure is kinda a sad joke. Through I should note that things differ depending on the area of Germany you are in. Anyway the best thing I can buy (and get) in my area (in a relatively wealthy area of Berlin) is ~60Mb/10Mb connection which is somewhat reliable (fails 0-4 times every day for ~1-5min each, but it only happens between 2am and 6am, so ok, not a problem and at least one failure is probably the router). EDIT: Just to be clear the biggest joke are not the ISP's but the politicians which let themself be bribed not only to tolerate but actively support this situation. Through it's also incompetence not to long ago some politician responsible for making regulations in this area stated (and believed) that ???Kb (forgot the actual value but it was less then 1Mb) is high speed internet. It's sad if politician are stuck years in the past and are so arrogant and incompetent that educating them about their mistake is destined to fail.

ShrigmaMale 5y ago

> 10Gbit and 25Gbit fibre to the home That is suprising, why? Can most people even use that much speed? Netflix only need so much bandwith. Good for homelabs, just most people don't have them.

hansel_der 5y ago
iirc fibre7 ceo said that they did it "because they can", to put pressure on the incumbant telcos and also to reduce complexity with simply connecting customers at the best speed supported by the infrastructure.
GoblinSlayer 5y ago
An average webapp loads half of npm on first visit then makes about a million additional requests to make all the frameworks happy. When do you think can work?
- Sebb767 5y ago
  For this, latency is the real problem. Even a 10 MB script bundle will be reasonably fast to load on 50 Mb/s; getting all those requests out is what takes time.
mciancia 5y ago
Well, why _not_ offer this if it's a similar cost the ISP?

kiwijamo 5y ago

Swisscom as a older RSP probably is sitting on a huge block of IPv4 addresses, whereas newer RSPs usually have much smaller blocks. Hence older RSPs tend to continue with IPv4 as they have enough addresses to do this, whereas newer ones are pretty much forced to migrated to CG-NAT/IPv6 to conserve their IPv4 space. I see this here in New Zealand too: Spark, which was previously the state owned Telecom New Zealand, has so many IPv4 addresses they have done nothing at all in regards to IPv6 because they have no economic incentive to do so. In contrast, many of the other RSPs here have much smaller IPv4 blocks so CG-NAT/IPv6 is becoming the norm now for the smaller/newer RSPs.

zepearl 5y ago

> but only one ISP natively supports IPv6 Personally I'm using as a provider "solnet.ch" (I'm their customer since a very long time and so far I'm very happy with them - it's a small provider headquartered in the canton Solothurn, but my connection originates from the canton Zurich), and so far it doesn't seem that they'll offer IPv6, so this matches your statement. On the other hand, if I remember correctly, I think (not sure and I cannot check this now) that I did have to modify my DNS configuration of my email server related to IPv6 when my parents changed from Swisscom to Sunrise (in 2020 or 2019 - my mother uses my email-server and the IPv6-entries weren't configured correctly) => can it be that Sunrise is using IPv6 as well, at least partially? I might be wrong, especially regarding what you mean with "natively" (maybe you mean that customers get "only" an IPv6-address, the access to the IPv4-network being fully relayed at the ISP-level?).

zahllos 5y ago
So by natively I mean that if you look at the packets there is only ipv6. 6rd, hurricane electric and so on, you can use these tunnels to get the functional equivalent of having IPv6 at home, but between you and the point-of-presence (the other end of the line your router is connected to where Swisscom decide to do something with your packet) is IPv4. Customers actively have to opt in to 6rd on Swisscom and actively have to set up hurricane electric and other IPv6 tunnels. Which means connectivity is limited to people who are going to do that, so service providers on the internet must offer IPv4.