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It seems like all the comments here are from non bubble users. We have worked on over 20 client projects in the past 1.5 years using bubble. Specialising excl

It seems like all the comments here are from non bubble users. We have worked on over 20 client projects in the past 1.5 years using bubble. Specialising exclusively in bubble now. A way to describe the platform would be WordPress for Web Apps. There was a census recently. ~75% clients are startup/MVPs ~25% SME making business tooling Out client portfolio is similar. I've hired fresh graduates in Pakistan, trained them in 2 weeks. And now have them working on a customer production app. I've also taught bubble bootcamps. After 8 weeks of weekly 2 hour zoom sessions, I doubt you'll get much progress in a coded bootcamp. But these guys were building their app ideas. All sorts of backgrounds. Accountant. Art student. Podcast editor etc. I have a client who needs a quick 2 week MVP. Done. I have a client whose 40+ employees use bubble app daily across four counting. Core business tooling. The four pieces needed for a web app are Design Logic Data Hosting. Bubble combines all that and reduces the barrier to entry. No need to make comments like the famous Dropbox comment. Why not just SSH sftp xyz. NoCode is definitely rising. We have won bids against coding agencies due to cost/time. The competing coded agency suggested 3 months. I quoted 2 months. The day rate is somewhat similar. The speed is much faster. Very much needed for MVPs That being said. There are drawbacks. You can throw 30 software engineers and have a system and increase velocity that way. However, bubble/NoCode is more suited to small teams (afaict yet) Feel free to ask me anything. Bubble.io coach, bootcamp instructor, agency owner here. Bubble all day every day. Email : hn@azkytech.com

knighthack 5y ago
> You can throw 30 software engineers and have a system and increase velocity that way. This makes absolutely no sense at all. You obviously have not read _The Mythical Man-Month_, and judging by what you've written I completely doubt the entirety of what you've said. Speed is one thing. The long-term maintainability and usability of a system is another thing altogether. I have serious doubts about this 'no code' movement.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- mattzito 5y ago
  I think you can read the statement through a charitable or uncharitable lens - the uncharitable way is "throw 30 engineers at a problem and it'll get faster" However, in the context of the other comments the GP made, I interpreted it as, "You can have a larger team with a properly built system with usability and maintainability, with good separation of concerns, and speed things up that way, but we have a smaller team and so bubble serves us well by allowing us to get things done quickly". > I have serious doubts about this 'no code' movement. I think the GP was pretty transparent about what it is good for and what it is not - I think the "wordpress for apps" is a good description. Wordpress is great for a particular class of problem, and then when you get to a certain level of complexity, you end up throwing it out and rewriting it, or putting so much on top of/around it that it is unrecognizable.
- Uehreka 5y ago
  Given the kind of cocky tone elsewhere in that comment, I read it as “the biggest problem with Bubble is that if you’re an engineering manager who likes maintaining a fiefdom of 30 engineers, you won’t get to do that anymore”. No-code folks often try and make it seem like their biggest antagonists are corrupt middle managers, because they make for better rhetorical punching bags than individual contributor developers. You’re right about the mythical man month, but I have a feeling this person is trying to grind an axe more than make a coherent point.
- zubairlk 5y ago
  Ok I'll elaborate. I really really miss git, version control systems, pull requests, automated ci checks etc. Imagine a world without git and version control systems. Then apply that to NoCode. Who changed which line. When did it happen. These things are normal with code/git. But not with NoCode/bubble (yet Jul2021). Which file is the master. Which change to merge. And then throw 30 software engineers at the project. Chaos will happen. The comment was less about architecture and more about version control and merging which is still early days in the world of bubble compared to software engineering
vsareto 5y ago
How easy is it to debug something in Bubble for a dev and non-dev? They're using Javascript for the custom code part of the platform. Is it the same for the no code part?
- zubairlk 5y ago
  Debugging the NoCode part in bubble is super super super easy. When logged into bubble, add ?debug_mode=true in URL. See the bottom toolbar. Step by step through any workflow action. (Event based paradigm) or inspect any element and check any state/property. Not chrome inspect tools. Bubble has its own debugging. Backend debugging is slightly trickier. The logs are harder to read. Sprinkling some database entries makes it easy
yellow_lead 5y ago
What are the limitations? You say it's suited well for MVPs. Is it well suited for our typical web app that has evolving and increasingly technical logic as business needs change?
- zubairlk 5y ago
  Depends on the application. If it is a business that needs Standard CRUD, relational dB backend, a front end. The web app is in a zone that is perfectly viable and can stay in bubble. Cosmetic Limitations can easily be overcome with custom plugins built using nodejs. We had to parse a large CSV once and wrote a bit of JavaScript to overcome it. What I wouldn't do in bubble - make a game. Tricky stuff. - intensive math on bubble server. E.g. any machine learning should be done elsewhere. - make something like bubble in bubble. Nope. Don't.
rattray 5y ago
At what point do your clients typically need to go from the Bubble app to a coded app?
- zubairlk 5y ago
  Haven't had one go yet. The business tooling is built to stay in bubble. SME/Cost. Many MVPs died. Some still MVP stage iterating.
rattray 5y ago
What tools did your agency use before Bubble?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- zubairlk 5y ago
  I left my job (Embedded software engineer, linux, raspberrypi, no web, no javascript) to dive into NoCode and started bubble freelancing and then quickly a bubble agency by hiring/building a team in Pakistan.. Tried a few other platforms (wappler, adalo) but not much luck. Focusing only on bubble now.
rattray 5y ago
What is your most complex Bubble app? How hard is it to make changes to it?
- zubairlk 5y ago
  So a marketplace booking system with payments would be that. Sports venue sign up and configure their fields (5v5 indoor, 11v11), onboard to Stripe Connect Express. Public booking page for the venue. Players booking and reserving. Sharing invite URL with other players who can add themselves to the roster and make payments. Venue sees bookings and payments. This one is half done and I'm really excited about it.
bencollier49 5y ago
Can you give us an example of one of the 30 apps (as per your website) so we can look at it?
- bencollier49 5y ago
  Incidentally the only Bubble app I've seen online was mentioned in the Bubble FB ad: Revetize. It actually made me do some research when I saw the ad last week as it seemed so absurd. https://nocodefounders.com/interview/revetize-interview https://nocodefounders.com/interview/revetize-interview 0 results on the Apple app store, but there is an app on the Play store called Revetize with "10+ downloads". Perhaps that's it?
  - vincentsaulys 5y ago
    Bubble has a showcase section on their site: https://bubble.io/showcase https://bubble.io/showcase
    - figers 5y ago
      they look like marketing websites...
- zubairlk 5y ago
  app.konstructly.com (2 sided marketplace. Internal profile and dashboard. In app messaging. Job posting and hiring) https://www.divertsessions.com/pages/challenges-app https://www.divertsessions.com/pages/challenges-app (Instagram for action sports. App in app store is bubble by us) Lots of business tooling ones that are a bit more sensitive. Booking systems for SMEs.
  - zubairlk 5y ago
    We also made the interactive dashboard on this page https://www.islamicfinanceguru.com/halal-investments/ https://www.islamicfinanceguru.com/halal-investments/ This is iframed
macando 5y ago
"We have worked on 30+ projects in bubble.io." "I'm afraid many are only showable on a Zoom call. Please book a consultation call and I'll share a project that aligns closest with what your project." 30 projects 0 images 0 gifs 0 videos 0 company names 0 case studies Hmmmmm.
- zubairlk 5y ago
  At this point in time, there is more demand for bubble than supply of service providers. When turning down work and struggling to scale, our own website https://azkytech.com https://azkytech.com takes a hit. Also, I'm working with a coach and his words are correct. Need to figure out ideal customer profile first and then invest in these. E.g. have worked on 3 mobile apps . And they are really hard with bubble. The divert challenges app [1] is one of our projects. But just today I asked a guy to find someone else to work on their mobile app.. https://www.divertsessions.com/pages/challenges-app https://www.divertsessions.com/pages/challenges-app
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  New platform, same old consulting tactics.
rco8786 5y ago
Very cool! I have not tried a ton of Nocode but have been watching with interest from afar. My main question is: How do you go from Nocode MVP to a fully productionalized system? It seems like there's a gap there that would still require a team of engineers building the thing with code. Or do tools like Bubble provide ways to incrementally transition?
- zubairlk 5y ago
  Not yet. The data can be accessed via API endpoints. So a script could fetch it and populate a new database. The tricky part would be user authentication. It's built in. So those would need to slowly migrate and need a strategy.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
I think two things are simultaneously true about no-code apps: 1) They really are a fast way to get an MVP that can be shown to investors and customers and even process customer transactions for simple businesses. Many simple businesses don't fit into pre-packaged SaaS platforms like Shopify, but don't really need a fully custom solution built from the ground up. No-code is good for these. 2) No-code quickly hits a wall when things start to get more complex or as the scale grows. At some point, trying to coerce the no-code solution into doing what you need becomes increasingly painful and a custom solution becomes necessary. In reality, I think many small businesses and simple startups are actually a good fit for no-code websites. The Wordpress analogy is a good comparison because we all know how unnecessary it is to write a blogging platform from scratch in 2021 (unless for hobby, of course). Likewise, it's going to become silly to write a custom backend and frontend solution for a client whose entire business is basically a couple of web forms and simple workflows. It's all about picking the right tool for the job, and no-code tools can be the right tool for many jobs. But they're not the right tool for every job. Knowing the difference is important.
- zubairlk 5y ago
  The wall is definitely there. And the wall keeps moving further and further away. Totally right about the right tool for the job. And yes NoCode is the right tool for many simple crud apps.
Salgat 5y ago
Sounds like a great case for MVPs and startups. Perfect for basic CRUD web apps I imagine. Also the extensibility with plugins means you can still "code" in things you need, which helps with edge cases.
- zubairlk 5y ago
  100% agree. Great case for standard CRUD apps and has a coded plugin framework where some nodejs can extend if needed

knighthack 5y ago

> You can throw 30 software engineers and have a system and increase velocity that way. This makes absolutely no sense at all. You obviously have not read _The Mythical Man-Month_, and judging by what you've written I completely doubt the entirety of what you've said. Speed is one thing. The long-term maintainability and usability of a system is another thing altogether. I have serious doubts about this 'no code' movement.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mattzito 5y ago
I think you can read the statement through a charitable or uncharitable lens - the uncharitable way is "throw 30 engineers at a problem and it'll get faster" However, in the context of the other comments the GP made, I interpreted it as, "You can have a larger team with a properly built system with usability and maintainability, with good separation of concerns, and speed things up that way, but we have a smaller team and so bubble serves us well by allowing us to get things done quickly". > I have serious doubts about this 'no code' movement. I think the GP was pretty transparent about what it is good for and what it is not - I think the "wordpress for apps" is a good description. Wordpress is great for a particular class of problem, and then when you get to a certain level of complexity, you end up throwing it out and rewriting it, or putting so much on top of/around it that it is unrecognizable.
Uehreka 5y ago
Given the kind of cocky tone elsewhere in that comment, I read it as “the biggest problem with Bubble is that if you’re an engineering manager who likes maintaining a fiefdom of 30 engineers, you won’t get to do that anymore”. No-code folks often try and make it seem like their biggest antagonists are corrupt middle managers, because they make for better rhetorical punching bags than individual contributor developers. You’re right about the mythical man month, but I have a feeling this person is trying to grind an axe more than make a coherent point.
zubairlk 5y ago
Ok I'll elaborate. I really really miss git, version control systems, pull requests, automated ci checks etc. Imagine a world without git and version control systems. Then apply that to NoCode. Who changed which line. When did it happen. These things are normal with code/git. But not with NoCode/bubble (yet Jul2021). Which file is the master. Which change to merge. And then throw 30 software engineers at the project. Chaos will happen. The comment was less about architecture and more about version control and merging which is still early days in the world of bubble compared to software engineering

vsareto 5y ago

How easy is it to debug something in Bubble for a dev and non-dev? They're using Javascript for the custom code part of the platform. Is it the same for the no code part?

zubairlk 5y ago
Debugging the NoCode part in bubble is super super super easy. When logged into bubble, add ?debug_mode=true in URL. See the bottom toolbar. Step by step through any workflow action. (Event based paradigm) or inspect any element and check any state/property. Not chrome inspect tools. Bubble has its own debugging. Backend debugging is slightly trickier. The logs are harder to read. Sprinkling some database entries makes it easy

yellow_lead 5y ago

What are the limitations? You say it's suited well for MVPs. Is it well suited for our typical web app that has evolving and increasingly technical logic as business needs change?

zubairlk 5y ago
Depends on the application. If it is a business that needs Standard CRUD, relational dB backend, a front end. The web app is in a zone that is perfectly viable and can stay in bubble. Cosmetic Limitations can easily be overcome with custom plugins built using nodejs. We had to parse a large CSV once and wrote a bit of JavaScript to overcome it. What I wouldn't do in bubble - make a game. Tricky stuff. - intensive math on bubble server. E.g. any machine learning should be done elsewhere. - make something like bubble in bubble. Nope. Don't.

rattray 5y ago

At what point do your clients typically need to go from the Bubble app to a coded app?

zubairlk 5y ago
Haven't had one go yet. The business tooling is built to stay in bubble. SME/Cost. Many MVPs died. Some still MVP stage iterating.

rattray 5y ago

What tools did your agency use before Bubble?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
zubairlk 5y ago
I left my job (Embedded software engineer, linux, raspberrypi, no web, no javascript) to dive into NoCode and started bubble freelancing and then quickly a bubble agency by hiring/building a team in Pakistan.. Tried a few other platforms (wappler, adalo) but not much luck. Focusing only on bubble now.

rattray 5y ago

What is your most complex Bubble app? How hard is it to make changes to it?

zubairlk 5y ago
So a marketplace booking system with payments would be that. Sports venue sign up and configure their fields (5v5 indoor, 11v11), onboard to Stripe Connect Express. Public booking page for the venue. Players booking and reserving. Sharing invite URL with other players who can add themselves to the roster and make payments. Venue sees bookings and payments. This one is half done and I'm really excited about it.

bencollier49 5y ago

Can you give us an example of one of the 30 apps (as per your website) so we can look at it?

bencollier49 5y ago
Incidentally the only Bubble app I've seen online was mentioned in the Bubble FB ad: Revetize. It actually made me do some research when I saw the ad last week as it seemed so absurd. https://nocodefounders.com/interview/revetize-interview https://nocodefounders.com/interview/revetize-interview 0 results on the Apple app store, but there is an app on the Play store called Revetize with "10+ downloads". Perhaps that's it?
- vincentsaulys 5y ago
  Bubble has a showcase section on their site: https://bubble.io/showcase https://bubble.io/showcase
  - figers 5y ago
    they look like marketing websites...
zubairlk 5y ago
app.konstructly.com (2 sided marketplace. Internal profile and dashboard. In app messaging. Job posting and hiring) https://www.divertsessions.com/pages/challenges-app https://www.divertsessions.com/pages/challenges-app (Instagram for action sports. App in app store is bubble by us) Lots of business tooling ones that are a bit more sensitive. Booking systems for SMEs.
- zubairlk 5y ago
  We also made the interactive dashboard on this page https://www.islamicfinanceguru.com/halal-investments/ https://www.islamicfinanceguru.com/halal-investments/ This is iframed

macando 5y ago

"We have worked on 30+ projects in bubble.io." "I'm afraid many are only showable on a Zoom call. Please book a consultation call and I'll share a project that aligns closest with what your project." 30 projects 0 images 0 gifs 0 videos 0 company names 0 case studies Hmmmmm.

zubairlk 5y ago
At this point in time, there is more demand for bubble than supply of service providers. When turning down work and struggling to scale, our own website https://azkytech.com https://azkytech.com takes a hit. Also, I'm working with a coach and his words are correct. Need to figure out ideal customer profile first and then invest in these. E.g. have worked on 3 mobile apps . And they are really hard with bubble. The divert challenges app [1] is one of our projects. But just today I asked a guy to find someone else to work on their mobile app.. https://www.divertsessions.com/pages/challenges-app https://www.divertsessions.com/pages/challenges-app
908B64B197 5y ago
New platform, same old consulting tactics.

rco8786 5y ago

Very cool! I have not tried a ton of Nocode but have been watching with interest from afar. My main question is: How do you go from Nocode MVP to a fully productionalized system? It seems like there's a gap there that would still require a team of engineers building the thing with code. Or do tools like Bubble provide ways to incrementally transition?

zubairlk 5y ago
Not yet. The data can be accessed via API endpoints. So a script could fetch it and populate a new database. The tricky part would be user authentication. It's built in. So those would need to slowly migrate and need a strategy.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

I think two things are simultaneously true about no-code apps: 1) They really are a fast way to get an MVP that can be shown to investors and customers and even process customer transactions for simple businesses. Many simple businesses don't fit into pre-packaged SaaS platforms like Shopify, but don't really need a fully custom solution built from the ground up. No-code is good for these. 2) No-code quickly hits a wall when things start to get more complex or as the scale grows. At some point, trying to coerce the no-code solution into doing what you need becomes increasingly painful and a custom solution becomes necessary. In reality, I think many small businesses and simple startups are actually a good fit for no-code websites. The Wordpress analogy is a good comparison because we all know how unnecessary it is to write a blogging platform from scratch in 2021 (unless for hobby, of course). Likewise, it's going to become silly to write a custom backend and frontend solution for a client whose entire business is basically a couple of web forms and simple workflows. It's all about picking the right tool for the job, and no-code tools can be the right tool for many jobs. But they're not the right tool for every job. Knowing the difference is important.

zubairlk 5y ago
The wall is definitely there. And the wall keeps moving further and further away. Totally right about the right tool for the job. And yes NoCode is the right tool for many simple crud apps.

Salgat 5y ago

Sounds like a great case for MVPs and startups. Perfect for basic CRUD web apps I imagine. Also the extensibility with plugins means you can still "code" in things you need, which helps with edge cases.

zubairlk 5y ago
100% agree. Great case for standard CRUD apps and has a coded plugin framework where some nodejs can extend if needed