7 ms·

The whole "right to repair" issue is somewhat complex but farm equipment is a pretty good example of the why this is necessary. For anyone that doesn't know, f

by cletus 5y ago

The whole "right to repair" issue is somewhat complex but farm equipment is a pretty good example of the why this is necessary. For anyone that doesn't know, farm equipment generally lasts a long time. There are farms out there still operating 70+ year old John Deere tractors. With proper servicing such equipment lasts a really long time. Nowadays such equipment attracts a premium simply because it is so simple and can be serviced by the owner for many simple things. You don't need to pay for and (sometimes worse) _wait for_ a "qualified" tech with the right computer to fix a faulty sensor. Companies deliberately make equipment that cannot be serviced to increase total revenue and it's a disgusting and egregious form of rent-seeking. As an aside, your car's warranty is essentially a scheme to make more money similar to this. Using parts of services that aren't "genuine" can void your warranty.

kickout 5y ago
Not sure how you are concluding machines to day are more simple than they were 40 years ago. If anything, they are 100x more complex with electronics, way more hydraulics, plastics, iron, engine mods to achieve power and efficiency. The 'old' tractors are basically a motor strapped to a chasis (e.g. JD 4020). Although my gut reaction is to side with the farmers, its not so black and white. Nobody is making them buy these 'locked down' tractors, they are choosing to. Money could speak louder than words
- neogodless 5y ago
  > With proper servicing such equipment lasts a really long time. > Nowadays such equipment attracts a premium simply because it is so simple and can be serviced by the owner for many simple things. The comment is about how old, well-maintained equipment is simple and attracts a premium. The manufacturers are coupling "locked down" tractors with... you know, tractors. If there are competitively produced tractors without the restrictions on owner maintenance, they will sell better, but if that market doesn't exist, the farmers cannot simply vote with their wallets. The complexity of the modern tractors does make it a difficult market for new entrants, so the existing ones own the market, and choose some of the restrictions. It's not a simple problem - modern systems are complex, and so it's not trivial to ensure it's repairable without sophisticated tools and knowledge, but it's still a problem worth examining.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
>For anyone that doesn't know, farm equipment generally lasts a long time. There are farms out there still operating 70+ year old John Deere tractors. With proper servicing such equipment lasts a really long time. There is basically nobody out there operating even a 80s combine because when you are dealing with razor thin commodities margins a couple percent efficiency in machinery applied across your whole fleet can/will make or break you. Some boutique fruit farmer on a tiny amount of land an hour from Boston might be using an old tractor but nobody outside that sort of use case is running antiquated equipment. Not to say everyone is running locked down JD crap but old equipment isn't nearly as responsible for the contents of the supermarket as HN likes to think it is. >As an aside, your car's warranty is essentially a scheme to make more money similar to this. Using parts of services that aren't "genuine" can void your warranty. This was made illegal decades ago.
- kochb 5y ago
  When old equipment pops up on small farms, it's usually someone operating on a small scale (~300ac or so), making a profit off land they own by keeping their costs down. Definitely not a great way to earn an income, and it probably doesn't cover their bills, but people do it. Otherwise, the old equipment is typically used for odd jobs around the farm, like the use case of hauling produce you mentioned. I'd agree that you see it less often with combines; they're a much more complicated machine.
  - mattferderer 5y ago
    > When old equipment pops up on small farms, it's usually someone operating on a small scale (~300ac or so), making a profit off land they own by keeping their costs down. Definitely not a great way to earn an income, and it probably doesn't cover their bills, but people do it. I would say a lot of farmers who own their land are able to keep costs down & make a decent profit with older equipment. It's cheaper & can be easier/cheaper for them to fix instead of taking it somewhere. I also recall stories about the amount of fertilizer one puts down being similar. Some people crowd their crops & spend a lot on additional fertilizer to try to boost their yields. Some try to keep costs down & accept a smaller yield. A large amount of variables seem to determine who comes out ahead.
Spooky23 5y ago
That’s not true on the car warranty side at all. Some luxury manufacturers and most recently Tesla make this claim, but any part that meets the spec is fine and doesn’t violate any warranty.
jbluepolarbear 5y ago
Kubota is getting popular here in Oregon. The dealerships will sell you parts for repair.
Sindisil 5y ago
> Using parts of services that aren't "genuine" can void your warranty. Not in the United States it can't. Nor can making repairs or modifications, unless the manufacturer can provide proof that your actions were what caused the issue you're asking to be corrected under warranty.
skyde 5y ago
same for mcdonald ice-cream machine https://youtu.be/SrDEtSlqJC4 https://youtu.be/SrDEtSlqJC4

by cletus 5y ago

kickout 5y ago

Not sure how you are concluding machines to day are more simple than they were 40 years ago. If anything, they are 100x more complex with electronics, way more hydraulics, plastics, iron, engine mods to achieve power and efficiency. The 'old' tractors are basically a motor strapped to a chasis (e.g. JD 4020). Although my gut reaction is to side with the farmers, its not so black and white. Nobody is making them buy these 'locked down' tractors, they are choosing to. Money could speak louder than words

neogodless 5y ago
> With proper servicing such equipment lasts a really long time. > Nowadays such equipment attracts a premium simply because it is so simple and can be serviced by the owner for many simple things. The comment is about how old, well-maintained equipment is simple and attracts a premium. The manufacturers are coupling "locked down" tractors with... you know, tractors. If there are competitively produced tractors without the restrictions on owner maintenance, they will sell better, but if that market doesn't exist, the farmers cannot simply vote with their wallets. The complexity of the modern tractors does make it a difficult market for new entrants, so the existing ones own the market, and choose some of the restrictions. It's not a simple problem - modern systems are complex, and so it's not trivial to ensure it's repairable without sophisticated tools and knowledge, but it's still a problem worth examining.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

>For anyone that doesn't know, farm equipment generally lasts a long time. There are farms out there still operating 70+ year old John Deere tractors. With proper servicing such equipment lasts a really long time. There is basically nobody out there operating even a 80s combine because when you are dealing with razor thin commodities margins a couple percent efficiency in machinery applied across your whole fleet can/will make or break you. Some boutique fruit farmer on a tiny amount of land an hour from Boston might be using an old tractor but nobody outside that sort of use case is running antiquated equipment. Not to say everyone is running locked down JD crap but old equipment isn't nearly as responsible for the contents of the supermarket as HN likes to think it is. >As an aside, your car's warranty is essentially a scheme to make more money similar to this. Using parts of services that aren't "genuine" can void your warranty. This was made illegal decades ago.

kochb 5y ago
When old equipment pops up on small farms, it's usually someone operating on a small scale (~300ac or so), making a profit off land they own by keeping their costs down. Definitely not a great way to earn an income, and it probably doesn't cover their bills, but people do it. Otherwise, the old equipment is typically used for odd jobs around the farm, like the use case of hauling produce you mentioned. I'd agree that you see it less often with combines; they're a much more complicated machine.
- mattferderer 5y ago
  > When old equipment pops up on small farms, it's usually someone operating on a small scale (~300ac or so), making a profit off land they own by keeping their costs down. Definitely not a great way to earn an income, and it probably doesn't cover their bills, but people do it. I would say a lot of farmers who own their land are able to keep costs down & make a decent profit with older equipment. It's cheaper & can be easier/cheaper for them to fix instead of taking it somewhere. I also recall stories about the amount of fertilizer one puts down being similar. Some people crowd their crops & spend a lot on additional fertilizer to try to boost their yields. Some try to keep costs down & accept a smaller yield. A large amount of variables seem to determine who comes out ahead.

Spooky23 5y ago

That’s not true on the car warranty side at all. Some luxury manufacturers and most recently Tesla make this claim, but any part that meets the spec is fine and doesn’t violate any warranty.

jbluepolarbear 5y ago

Kubota is getting popular here in Oregon. The dealerships will sell you parts for repair.

Sindisil 5y ago

> Using parts of services that aren't "genuine" can void your warranty. Not in the United States it can't. Nor can making repairs or modifications, unless the manufacturer can provide proof that your actions were what caused the issue you're asking to be corrected under warranty.

skyde 5y ago

same for mcdonald ice-cream machine https://youtu.be/SrDEtSlqJC4 https://youtu.be/SrDEtSlqJC4