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People (especially the kind that hangs out in HN) dont seem to understand that there’s a vast ocean of fairly smart people, much smarter than the average (or e

People (especially the kind that hangs out in HN) dont seem to understand that there’s a vast ocean of fairly smart people, much smarter than the average (or even above average) programmer, who are unable to build what they can imagine because of the coding bottleneck. I know many, and it’s not for a lack of significant effort that they are not able to learn to code in a way that’s meaningful. I suppose there’s something in your brain that needs to click to write code? Anyways I’d much rather trust a product created by a team described in this comment than one written by a pure group of engineers.

JohnWhigham 5y ago
Absolutely. It can't be said enough how much of a bubble there is here. Smart entrepreneurs who know how to get shit done don't want to waste their time learning a bunch of rote arcane commands to reify their vision. That said, these kinds of no-code panics happen twice a year around here, and looking back long enough, they're never more than a niche product. We'll see about this one.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
xnx 5y ago
I like to consider myself one of those people. I find the hosting/infrastructure side much more of an obstacle/hassle than the code. Getting the infrastructure out of the way and letting me write business logic and tools is what I'm most interested in.
flarg 5y ago
In life sciences the people are smarter than any developer but software is IT-captured so all they can work with is Excel. No code is meant for these people. Software developers will never deliver what life sciences needs without no code.
- wittycardio 5y ago
  Life sciences people are generally far less intelligent than the average developer lol
  - ramraj07 5y ago
    I was a LS PhD, now I’m a developer. I can assure you that the average developer is far inferior to most PhD or post docs in any reputable university. Doesn’t mean they are absolutely smart though, I’d argue the biggest issue in research today is that there are a lot of not-that-smart-hustlers in it compared to what researhers used to be 60-100 years back.
- soco 5y ago
  I was once hired to do exactly that - develop real software to replace the weird hacks those life science folk built by themselves. Boy were they happy after that. So I guess your mileage will vary by lots.
- anm89 5y ago
  You think every single person in life sciences is smarter than every single developer? Let me guess, you are one of the brilliant ones. I've met some dim people in science research tracks.
- Zababa 5y ago
  > In life sciences the people are smarter than any developer but software is IT-captured so all they can work with is Excel. That's not really proving your point about them being "smarter than any developer". Lots of developers are smart enough to build their own tools.
- adwn 5y ago
  If they are really that much smarter, why don't they code their own tools? It's not like there's a programming guild which enforces the monopoly held by certified software developers.
  - datavirtue 5y ago
murukesh_s 5y ago
Totally. I use this analogy where if photoshop did not have this low-code interface and all artists have to do was program strokes code by code, how many artists who couldn't learn or understand "coding" would be left out? IMO Bubble is only ms-paint+ (entry point lowcode) and Photoshop (or Figma) is yet to hit the market.
- xchaotic 5y ago
  well, Bubble can simply add more features to become the equivalent of Photoshop for web design...
  - knighthack 5y ago
    ...And then we'll have Squarespace.
    - murukesh_s 5y ago
      Squarespace, Illustrator, Photoshop, Maya, After effects - whatever - its a different way to think about exposing the interface - they all have algorithms under the hood, but they wont expose it in the same language (of difficulty) as the algorithms - have a visual interface on top of it. Why can't web developers be treated as people who need high level components? (, databases, APIs, file systems, queues)
- lwhi 5y ago
  Does Photoshop let anyone become a useful designer? I'd argue, no. Bubble will not provide good handmade applications in the vast majority of cases.
mhitza 5y ago
> who are unable to build what they can imagine because of the coding bottleneck Sounds to me like a generally applicable thing to be honest. Even as a programmer I can't just pick up my favorite language and use it for any type of software. There is mature/user-friendly infrastructure and libraries for X/Y targeting Z, for a limited set of permutations.
lenkite 5y ago
I know excellent mathematicians who cannot code. The guy can solve Math Olympiad problems and puzzles but he despises coding. Old school chalk/board or pencil/paper for him all the way.
- rory 5y ago
  Are they not able to learn to code though, or is it simply a matter of comfort and preference?
  - ramraj07 5y ago
    A professor I know solves the quantum mechanical equations of metabolites to predict their MR spectrum to optimize their pulse sequence, and then does it directly on patients. His QC simulation code in matlab would write the output of each iteration to a file because he didn’t optimize the object sizes. A simulation that should take an hour now takes 20 lol. It’s probably like in the Sherlock show how Holmes says he doesn’t want to waste neurons memorizing constellations.
Abishek_Muthian 5y ago
I'm happy that these no-code/less-code/visual programming tools are putting the web-apps in focus again, It's changing from 'I have an idea, I need to find an mobile app developer' to 'I have an idea, I can create a prototype on web myself'. Personally as a coder I have workflows, tool-chains developed over several years that writing a code to create a MVP is faster than learning no-code tools, also the end product is lean and stays with me. So I haven't used these tools but tried notion for the first time yesterday to export my kindle highlights(HN comments)[1], So I can see the value in these no-code tools in automation workflows for even coders. [1] https://twitter.com/Abishek_Muthian/status/1419915063490605057 https://twitter.com/Abishek_Muthian/status/14199150634906050...
thesz 5y ago
To write code is much like to instructing a person who is doing work-to-rule. That person won't do anything outside of instructions given and will stop at the very first time it can (encounter an error). If you can cope with instructing work-to-rule workers, you can code. No extraordinary smarts required. As of "much smarter than above average programmer", programmers in average are at IQ 115. If we take "above average" as +15 points (IQ's standard deviation) and "much smarter" as another +30 points, we end at 160 IQ points person. Four standard deviations make that person one in roughly 16 000, or sixteen thousands. I think you should know a lot of people, much more than 150 or so of average person, to know many of them. And to offer you my experience, my brother seems not to have any problems with coding in Python. He is well into 40-s, most of his career he was at the C*O positions and right now he decided to change venues one more time.
- Scea91 5y ago
  > As of "much smarter than above average programmer", programmers in average are at IQ 115. If we take "above average" as +15 points (IQ's standard deviation) and "much smarter" as another +30 points, we end at 160 IQ points person. Four standard deviations make that person one in roughly 16 000, or sixteen thousands. I think you should know a lot of people, much more than 150 or so of average person, to know many of them. Nice example that if you define the terms to suit your argument then you can make any argument. Also, the word 'smart' has much wider scope than just IQ. It is also possible that the people OP knows are not sampled randomly from general population (he might be in a chess club for example).

JohnWhigham 5y ago

Absolutely. It can't be said enough how much of a bubble there is here. Smart entrepreneurs who know how to get shit done don't want to waste their time learning a bunch of rote arcane commands to reify their vision. That said, these kinds of no-code panics happen twice a year around here, and looking back long enough, they're never more than a niche product. We'll see about this one.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

xnx 5y ago

I like to consider myself one of those people. I find the hosting/infrastructure side much more of an obstacle/hassle than the code. Getting the infrastructure out of the way and letting me write business logic and tools is what I'm most interested in.

flarg 5y ago

In life sciences the people are smarter than any developer but software is IT-captured so all they can work with is Excel. No code is meant for these people. Software developers will never deliver what life sciences needs without no code.

wittycardio 5y ago
Life sciences people are generally far less intelligent than the average developer lol
- ramraj07 5y ago
  I was a LS PhD, now I’m a developer. I can assure you that the average developer is far inferior to most PhD or post docs in any reputable university. Doesn’t mean they are absolutely smart though, I’d argue the biggest issue in research today is that there are a lot of not-that-smart-hustlers in it compared to what researhers used to be 60-100 years back.
soco 5y ago
I was once hired to do exactly that - develop real software to replace the weird hacks those life science folk built by themselves. Boy were they happy after that. So I guess your mileage will vary by lots.
anm89 5y ago
You think every single person in life sciences is smarter than every single developer? Let me guess, you are one of the brilliant ones. I've met some dim people in science research tracks.
Zababa 5y ago
> In life sciences the people are smarter than any developer but software is IT-captured so all they can work with is Excel. That's not really proving your point about them being "smarter than any developer". Lots of developers are smart enough to build their own tools.
adwn 5y ago
If they are really that much smarter, why don't they code their own tools? It's not like there's a programming guild which enforces the monopoly held by certified software developers.
- datavirtue 5y ago

murukesh_s 5y ago

Totally. I use this analogy where if photoshop did not have this low-code interface and all artists have to do was program strokes code by code, how many artists who couldn't learn or understand "coding" would be left out? IMO Bubble is only ms-paint+ (entry point lowcode) and Photoshop (or Figma) is yet to hit the market.

xchaotic 5y ago
well, Bubble can simply add more features to become the equivalent of Photoshop for web design...
- knighthack 5y ago
  ...And then we'll have Squarespace.
  - murukesh_s 5y ago
    Squarespace, Illustrator, Photoshop, Maya, After effects - whatever - its a different way to think about exposing the interface - they all have algorithms under the hood, but they wont expose it in the same language (of difficulty) as the algorithms - have a visual interface on top of it. Why can't web developers be treated as people who need high level components? (, databases, APIs, file systems, queues)
lwhi 5y ago
Does Photoshop let anyone become a useful designer? I'd argue, no. Bubble will not provide good handmade applications in the vast majority of cases.

mhitza 5y ago

> who are unable to build what they can imagine because of the coding bottleneck Sounds to me like a generally applicable thing to be honest. Even as a programmer I can't just pick up my favorite language and use it for any type of software. There is mature/user-friendly infrastructure and libraries for X/Y targeting Z, for a limited set of permutations.

lenkite 5y ago

I know excellent mathematicians who cannot code. The guy can solve Math Olympiad problems and puzzles but he despises coding. Old school chalk/board or pencil/paper for him all the way.

rory 5y ago
Are they not able to learn to code though, or is it simply a matter of comfort and preference?
- ramraj07 5y ago
  A professor I know solves the quantum mechanical equations of metabolites to predict their MR spectrum to optimize their pulse sequence, and then does it directly on patients. His QC simulation code in matlab would write the output of each iteration to a file because he didn’t optimize the object sizes. A simulation that should take an hour now takes 20 lol. It’s probably like in the Sherlock show how Holmes says he doesn’t want to waste neurons memorizing constellations.

Abishek_Muthian 5y ago

I'm happy that these no-code/less-code/visual programming tools are putting the web-apps in focus again, It's changing from 'I have an idea, I need to find an mobile app developer' to 'I have an idea, I can create a prototype on web myself'. Personally as a coder I have workflows, tool-chains developed over several years that writing a code to create a MVP is faster than learning no-code tools, also the end product is lean and stays with me. So I haven't used these tools but tried notion for the first time yesterday to export my kindle highlights(HN comments)[1], So I can see the value in these no-code tools in automation workflows for even coders. [1] https://twitter.com/Abishek_Muthian/status/1419915063490605057 https://twitter.com/Abishek_Muthian/status/14199150634906050...

thesz 5y ago

To write code is much like to instructing a person who is doing work-to-rule. That person won't do anything outside of instructions given and will stop at the very first time it can (encounter an error). If you can cope with instructing work-to-rule workers, you can code. No extraordinary smarts required. As of "much smarter than above average programmer", programmers in average are at IQ 115. If we take "above average" as +15 points (IQ's standard deviation) and "much smarter" as another +30 points, we end at 160 IQ points person. Four standard deviations make that person one in roughly 16 000, or sixteen thousands. I think you should know a lot of people, much more than 150 or so of average person, to know many of them. And to offer you my experience, my brother seems not to have any problems with coding in Python. He is well into 40-s, most of his career he was at the C*O positions and right now he decided to change venues one more time.

Scea91 5y ago
> As of "much smarter than above average programmer", programmers in average are at IQ 115. If we take "above average" as +15 points (IQ's standard deviation) and "much smarter" as another +30 points, we end at 160 IQ points person. Four standard deviations make that person one in roughly 16 000, or sixteen thousands. I think you should know a lot of people, much more than 150 or so of average person, to know many of them. Nice example that if you define the terms to suit your argument then you can make any argument. Also, the word 'smart' has much wider scope than just IQ. It is also possible that the people OP knows are not sampled randomly from general population (he might be in a chess club for example).