3 ms·

I think one big reasons why RTS are having trouble is, that loosing in an RTS, as a new player, can be one of the worst experiences in gaming (not counting play

I think one big reasons why RTS are having trouble is, that loosing in an RTS, as a new player, can be one of the worst experiences in gaming (not counting player toxicity): you just spend several minutes, maybe a lot of them, playing this game, you finally got your T2 fab, and then the enemy nukes you with his experimental artillery and you are just gone. No way to understand what exactly went wrong. To slow? Wrong build order? No clue! Might you just mismanaged the harvester and you economy suffered early. Compare that to a shooter, an (a)rpg or a racing game. They might be as hard to win, but at least you have a clear understanding of what happens. He saw you, he shot you. She just had the correct breaking point figured out and you hit the wall. Ofc it’s not always that clear cut and there is a lot in between these examples. But in my experience, RTS and maybe strategy in general, can be really hard to understand what went wrong, even on a basic level. MOBAs are, imho somewhere on between. High skillcap both in regards or game knowledge and strategy, but also in agility, but also somewhat readable. Sure, you might wonder why your gorillas punch did way less damage than their gorilla, but a look at the KDA or their gear might already give you a hint. So I guess with the overall growth of the gaming market and games becoming more and more expensive, the small community that actually enjoys RTS isn’t really „worth“ that money.

CyanBird 5y ago
> I think one big reasons why RTS are having trouble is, that loosing in an RTS, as a new player, can be one of the worst experiences in gaming Famously one of the Default Taunts on Age Of Empires 2[0] is *You played for two hours to die like this?* [0] https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Taunts https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Taunts But can't but agree with the general angle, MOBA's in general are less punishing to players at a deep psychological level, StarCraft 2 "suffered" from what the playerbase called "Ladder Anxiety", which was players simply unable to deal with loss and loss aversion as a consequence of them tying their own ego and self-worth to how well they fared playing StarCraft, to the level that Blizzard on one of the expansions had to release a mode where players simply would not lose MMR/ELO points from loses nor earn them on wins, a ranked-less mode and that alleviated a considerable amount of pressure > So I guess with the overall growth of the gaming market and games becoming more and more expensive, the small community that actually enjoys RTS isn’t really „worth“ that money. Yeah, this is very much the case, at least for large AAA productions and companies, tho AA studios such as KingArt Games or Sunspear Games have been making inroads into creating new RTS titles which make me very happy as an avid RTS fan
- maverwa 5y ago
  > But can't but agree with the general angle, MOBA's in general are less punishing to players at a deep psychological level, StarCraft 2 "suffered" from what the playerbase called "Ladder Anxiety", which was players simply unable to deal with loss and loss aversion as a consequence of them tying their own ego and self-worth to how well they fared playing StarCraft, to the level that Blizzard on one of the expansions had to release a mode where players simply would not lose MMR/ELO points from loses nor earn them on wins, a ranked-less mode and that alleviated a considerable amount of pressure. This doesn't sound like we disagree at all. Although I definitely felt that ladder anxiety in LoL, I never would have thought about playing SC2 or WC3 ladder. Even watching these games I dont feel like I understand whats going on in detail. For some reason that felt "better" for MOBAs. But that feeling might very well be biased cause I played more MOBAs then RTS in total hours. > tho AA studios such as KingArt Games or Sunspear Games have been making inroads into creating new RTS titles which make me very happy as an avid RTS fan Oh yeah, reminds me that I still need to play some Iron Harvest...
- BlueTemplar 5y ago
  They could just have played team games only in RTS and achieved the same effect of being able to shift the blame onto their teammates ?
retsibsi 5y ago
> Compare that to a shooter I wouldn't claim they're quite so opaque, but Quakelike FPS games have a similar problem. They appear to be about shooting, but in fact at least 50% of the game is resource control (and even the combat itself is more nuanced than a new player realises). So when you're a new player losing to an experienced player, it can be super confusing and demoralising. Confusing because you probably don't realise why they are dominating you so hard and what you can do to stop it; demoralising because even if you persist and improve in one or two areas, it'll barely make a difference to the scoreboard. (You've improved your aim and learned to time items? Great, but the other guy knows the maps extremely well and can move around them far quicker than you, knows exactly how to position himself in a fight and when to use each weapon, dodges in unpredictable ways while predicting your own dodging and firing patterns, and so on. Meanwhile your newfound realisation that the armour and health items matter, and increasing ability to keep track of their timers, is making your routes through the map more predictable.)
- maverwa 5y ago
  Oh, tottaly! I was not trying to make a point that shooters do not have complexity at all. They do, even something as blut as CoD (I guess?). But especially for things Quakelikes or Team bases games like Rainbow 6 Siege theres a lot to be learned.
- yellowapple 5y ago
  I've definitely had similar feelings in Half Life 2: Deathmatch. I'm particularly fond of "low grav high kill" servers due to the fast pace (the low gravity enables a lot more movement around the map, and the "high kill" - i.e. weapons buffed / health nerfed such that getting hit by anything results in instant death or close to it - ups the stakes). Unfortunately, such servers often feature "sniper" maps, wherein players "in the know" will scramble to find the "hidey holes" and repeatedly slaughter any of us unfortunate schmucks. It got to the point that on such servers I'd protest by refusing to use guns at all and used a crowbar and grenades exclusively. Not sure if anyone really took note of what I was protesting against, but it sure got me on top of some monthly crowbar kill leaderboards :)
- BlueTemplar 5y ago
nerdponx 5y ago
Can't speak for every RTS and MOBA, but losing in Dota takes 45-60 minutes (30 at best depending on the current game balance) and feels pretty horrible. And it typically takes hundreds of hours of gameplay to be good enough to even understand why you lost and what you could have done to fix it. Relying heavily on 4 teammates makes it that much more demoralizing, especially when you know that a "good" player probably could have won even with the 4 bad teammates. Losing as a newbie in Starcraft and AoE feels way less bad.
- maverwa 5y ago
  Yeah, you are totally right, the time factor of losing in MOBAs (I persoanlly played a lot of LoL in the past, and tried some DotA and HotS) pretty much defies my argument in that regard. But when I compare that to losing in Civ (not RTS, but strategy in general), I think I had a better feeling for why we lost. And it kind of fits in the scheme, as MOBAs are, in a broader sense, at least partially, a game of strategy. Not nesassarily when you start as new player, but winnign consistenly also takes thinking ahead a lot. What risks to take, which weakness to exploit, what item to buy. Theres a lot of just in time decisions to make, while also keeping the bigger picture in mind. Maybe MOBAs are just "direct action" enough to cater to a wider audiance, but strategy enough to share some of the same problems?

CyanBird 5y ago

> I think one big reasons why RTS are having trouble is, that loosing in an RTS, as a new player, can be one of the worst experiences in gaming Famously one of the Default Taunts on Age Of Empires 2[0] is *You played for two hours to die like this?* [0] https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Taunts https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Taunts But can't but agree with the general angle, MOBA's in general are less punishing to players at a deep psychological level, StarCraft 2 "suffered" from what the playerbase called "Ladder Anxiety", which was players simply unable to deal with loss and loss aversion as a consequence of them tying their own ego and self-worth to how well they fared playing StarCraft, to the level that Blizzard on one of the expansions had to release a mode where players simply would not lose MMR/ELO points from loses nor earn them on wins, a ranked-less mode and that alleviated a considerable amount of pressure > So I guess with the overall growth of the gaming market and games becoming more and more expensive, the small community that actually enjoys RTS isn’t really „worth“ that money. Yeah, this is very much the case, at least for large AAA productions and companies, tho AA studios such as KingArt Games or Sunspear Games have been making inroads into creating new RTS titles which make me very happy as an avid RTS fan

maverwa 5y ago
> But can't but agree with the general angle, MOBA's in general are less punishing to players at a deep psychological level, StarCraft 2 "suffered" from what the playerbase called "Ladder Anxiety", which was players simply unable to deal with loss and loss aversion as a consequence of them tying their own ego and self-worth to how well they fared playing StarCraft, to the level that Blizzard on one of the expansions had to release a mode where players simply would not lose MMR/ELO points from loses nor earn them on wins, a ranked-less mode and that alleviated a considerable amount of pressure. This doesn't sound like we disagree at all. Although I definitely felt that ladder anxiety in LoL, I never would have thought about playing SC2 or WC3 ladder. Even watching these games I dont feel like I understand whats going on in detail. For some reason that felt "better" for MOBAs. But that feeling might very well be biased cause I played more MOBAs then RTS in total hours. > tho AA studios such as KingArt Games or Sunspear Games have been making inroads into creating new RTS titles which make me very happy as an avid RTS fan Oh yeah, reminds me that I still need to play some Iron Harvest...
BlueTemplar 5y ago
They could just have played team games only in RTS and achieved the same effect of being able to shift the blame onto their teammates ?

retsibsi 5y ago

> Compare that to a shooter I wouldn't claim they're quite so opaque, but Quakelike FPS games have a similar problem. They appear to be about shooting, but in fact at least 50% of the game is resource control (and even the combat itself is more nuanced than a new player realises). So when you're a new player losing to an experienced player, it can be super confusing and demoralising. Confusing because you probably don't realise why they are dominating you so hard and what you can do to stop it; demoralising because even if you persist and improve in one or two areas, it'll barely make a difference to the scoreboard. (You've improved your aim and learned to time items? Great, but the other guy knows the maps extremely well and can move around them far quicker than you, knows exactly how to position himself in a fight and when to use each weapon, dodges in unpredictable ways while predicting your own dodging and firing patterns, and so on. Meanwhile your newfound realisation that the armour and health items matter, and increasing ability to keep track of their timers, is making your routes through the map more predictable.)

maverwa 5y ago
Oh, tottaly! I was not trying to make a point that shooters do not have complexity at all. They do, even something as blut as CoD (I guess?). But especially for things Quakelikes or Team bases games like Rainbow 6 Siege theres a lot to be learned.
yellowapple 5y ago
I've definitely had similar feelings in Half Life 2: Deathmatch. I'm particularly fond of "low grav high kill" servers due to the fast pace (the low gravity enables a lot more movement around the map, and the "high kill" - i.e. weapons buffed / health nerfed such that getting hit by anything results in instant death or close to it - ups the stakes). Unfortunately, such servers often feature "sniper" maps, wherein players "in the know" will scramble to find the "hidey holes" and repeatedly slaughter any of us unfortunate schmucks. It got to the point that on such servers I'd protest by refusing to use guns at all and used a crowbar and grenades exclusively. Not sure if anyone really took note of what I was protesting against, but it sure got me on top of some monthly crowbar kill leaderboards :)
BlueTemplar 5y ago

nerdponx 5y ago

Can't speak for every RTS and MOBA, but losing in Dota takes 45-60 minutes (30 at best depending on the current game balance) and feels pretty horrible. And it typically takes hundreds of hours of gameplay to be good enough to even understand why you lost and what you could have done to fix it. Relying heavily on 4 teammates makes it that much more demoralizing, especially when you know that a "good" player probably could have won even with the 4 bad teammates. Losing as a newbie in Starcraft and AoE feels way less bad.

maverwa 5y ago
Yeah, you are totally right, the time factor of losing in MOBAs (I persoanlly played a lot of LoL in the past, and tried some DotA and HotS) pretty much defies my argument in that regard. But when I compare that to losing in Civ (not RTS, but strategy in general), I think I had a better feeling for why we lost. And it kind of fits in the scheme, as MOBAs are, in a broader sense, at least partially, a game of strategy. Not nesassarily when you start as new player, but winnign consistenly also takes thinking ahead a lot. What risks to take, which weakness to exploit, what item to buy. Theres a lot of just in time decisions to make, while also keeping the bigger picture in mind. Maybe MOBAs are just "direct action" enough to cater to a wider audiance, but strategy enough to share some of the same problems?