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I think its cool seeing what factors are considered in RTS balancing. I guess an equivalent for fighting games would be invincible vs non-invincible DPs or weir

I think its cool seeing what factors are considered in RTS balancing. I guess an equivalent for fighting games would be invincible vs non-invincible DPs or weird things like movement options. In RTS games balancing seems a bit more quantifiable. In fighting games there is a lot of guessing at what actually counters what unless its extremely obvious. Its hard to tell if a matchup or strat is good/bad due to the character/move properties or if its because one player is way better.

chrisfosterelli 5y ago
I know Apex Legends balancing is pretty aggregate stat based and with each release they monitor aggregate stats like what % of X character is on the winning team over all games or what % of X character killed Y character as well as different team compositions, along with similar stats for individual weapons, to try to balance the overall engagement statistics as much as possible.
- jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
  Dota has an interesting approach. They collect tons of statistics, but ultimately the game design comes down to one person, and they complement the stats with a lot of interviews with top ranked players to get their subjective perspective. The end result is the game has gotten better balanced continuously with time. There were a handful of patches that were a regression, but usually are on top of it pretty fast. One of the more pernicious problems they've faced is the team that holds the base on the bottom half of the map has consistently had an advantage, as much as 5%. This appears to be related to the perspective being 3d in the shape of top down, vs a literal 2d top down view. They've tried a few different ways to balance this, but what's ended up working best is trading it off vs first pick in the lineup drafting phase of the game start. Zynga was infamous for a stats driven approach, but there it was all about tricking people into maxing out the micro transactions :(
  - post-it 5y ago
    > One of the more pernicious problems they've faced is the team that holds the base on the bottom half of the map has consistently had an advantage, as much as 5%. This appears to be related to the perspective being 3d in the shape of top down, vs a literal 2d top down view. They've tried a few different ways to balance this, but what's ended up working best is trading it off vs first pick in the lineup drafting phase of the game start. The opposite to "the enemy's gate is down"
    - pete5x5 5y ago
      Exactly this - the ability to re-orient your view in a game (or in your mind in the case of the "enemy gate") can be a huge advantage. I personally play much better on bottom side in MOBA games and I have never understood why it can't be flipped. Even if the map is not 'symmetrical' the players could adapt to that change, rather than having to adapt to the change in side each game.
      - wincy 5y ago
        League of Legends: Wild Rift on iOS does this. You’re always the team on the “bottom half” of the map.
        pete5x5 5y ago
        Yes! Although I didn't like the game (mobile is not usually my jam), it further solidifies my theory that it can work in desktop MOBAs.
    - Haga 5y ago
      Turn the camera for one team?
  - blt 5y ago
    Did they try rotating the camera 180 degrees? I can understand how this might be confusing. Like a mirror track in Mario Kart, it would make the map feel totally different.
    - jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
      So, I suspect why they haven't gone with an approach like that is they want to preserve the layout for spectators. Dota is the biggest purse in all of esports, and they take the spectatorship quite seriously as a result.
      - sigstoat 5y ago
        as i recall, spectators receive game data, not a video stream. you can spectate in VR. so during real tournaments they could just broadcast from a spectator in the “standard” view.
    - ironman1478 5y ago
      Its really difficult. The exact placement of individual trees in the game matters a lot and it affects line of sight, which is a key component to Dota. If you flipped the view, not only would it just be weird, but what is visible can change I think based on the camera position. A tree that blocks a path in one camera position doesn't block it in another. A single tree's position sounds trivial, but navigating them is crucial at mid and high levels of play.
      - jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
        This is really perceptive and on point. I think something a lot of casual observers miss about Dota is it's a game of momentum with very small edges that accumulate. Compared to the other MOBAs it's the game that punishes you for a single error far more harshly.
    - ufo 5y ago
      It certainly is confusing. I remember that someone once made a video with the flipped map and most of the comments were about how weird it appeared: https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/5rmbd3/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/5rmbd3/ However, I wonder this is something that people would get used to, if they played it for a while. As far as I know, it was never seriously tried anywhere.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - dint 5y ago
    This is really interesting - could you share a source on how Valve/Icefrog make balancing decisions?
  - bllguo 5y ago
    valve collects statistics, yes. Are they used? Who knows, there's hardly any transparency in the balancing process. I will say that Icefrog has (supposedly) been in charge since WC3, back when there was no conceivable way they could have collected meaningful statistics.. I also haven't seen definitive sources about consultations with top players. I've heard about bouncing ideas off pros in the distant past, but not with any regularity, and not recently. "Better balanced continuously with time" is pretty subjective..
  - ironman1478 5y ago
    I made a comment about trees, but the other issue is that the map is super asymmetric. The bottom half (radiant) has a generally safer jungle and a very difficult to contest small pull (always been this way. Camp has just changed over time). The top team (dire) has a worse jungle, but it is closer to Roshan. The problem is people don't know how to use Roshan well (either capturing it or using the aegis), so that advantage isn't realized unless the team is at the top levels of the game. I think the perspective issue is there. But its not the entire 5%
- BlueTemplar 5y ago
  Zero-K does it too for the different factory matchups : https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/278908415756206080/868839104849264660/unknown.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/278908415756206080/86... (I assume this is for ranked 1vs1 rather than casual lobsterpot though ?)
emasirik 5y ago
Well, fighting games do offer high crush/low crush options, where hurtboxes (the vulnerable portion of your character) are shifted higher or lower, to make a move suited to cleanly beat either approaches from the air or sweeps. Beneficial properties like this can be balanced by a number of things -- speed, recovery time, damage, range, for a few examples! I realise you may already be familiar, but I figured it'd be worth expanding a little for other readers.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  High / Low options are rarely the option people think about at the high level. That's just a simple mixup (worst case scenario, you're forced to guess in case you can't react in time). What he was talking about is the DP, the "Dragon Punch", also known as Shoryuken, that Ryu / Ken are famous for in Street Fighter. The mindgame is that Shoryuken is 100% invincible: no matter what your opponent is doing, the Shoryuken / Dragon Punch will have infinite "priority" so to speak, it punches through all of your opponent's options because your hurtbox completely disappears during the move. That's right, your hurtbox is not merely "shifted", its gone. You're fully invincible. Of course, for balancing purposes, the Shoryuken has high-cooldown and high-periods of counter-hit status. Which means that although the Shoryuken "beats" all other attacks in the game, it also loses to a simple block into counter-hit. ------- So the mind game becomes one of timing. You approach the opponent, making them _THINK_ you're about to throw out an attack. They dragon-punch in response to your movement. But instead of attacking, you just block, and bam. You beat a player who spams dragon punch. Because of this extremely heavy "Dragon Punch wins vs all attacks" mindgame, there's a rich strategy / dance involved called footsies where the two players try to get each other to push the attack button first (especially if in a mirror match, Ryu vs Ryu or Ken vs Ken). The 2nd one to attack wins, because of the strange property of invincibility. ---- As far as Fighting Games go, the "Shoryuken" / Dragon punch is most similar to this "hard counter" found in RTS games. Shoryuken "hard counters" all other attacks in the game. While "simply holding the blocking button" consistently beats Shoryuken. Its a hard counter, always going to win if and only if you know exactly what the opponent will do. Because these options require understanding your opponent's mindset (when / timing of their use of Dragon Punches and/or blocking), they lead to incredibly fun mindgames.

chrisfosterelli 5y ago

I know Apex Legends balancing is pretty aggregate stat based and with each release they monitor aggregate stats like what % of X character is on the winning team over all games or what % of X character killed Y character as well as different team compositions, along with similar stats for individual weapons, to try to balance the overall engagement statistics as much as possible.

jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
Dota has an interesting approach. They collect tons of statistics, but ultimately the game design comes down to one person, and they complement the stats with a lot of interviews with top ranked players to get their subjective perspective. The end result is the game has gotten better balanced continuously with time. There were a handful of patches that were a regression, but usually are on top of it pretty fast. One of the more pernicious problems they've faced is the team that holds the base on the bottom half of the map has consistently had an advantage, as much as 5%. This appears to be related to the perspective being 3d in the shape of top down, vs a literal 2d top down view. They've tried a few different ways to balance this, but what's ended up working best is trading it off vs first pick in the lineup drafting phase of the game start. Zynga was infamous for a stats driven approach, but there it was all about tricking people into maxing out the micro transactions :(
- post-it 5y ago
  > One of the more pernicious problems they've faced is the team that holds the base on the bottom half of the map has consistently had an advantage, as much as 5%. This appears to be related to the perspective being 3d in the shape of top down, vs a literal 2d top down view. They've tried a few different ways to balance this, but what's ended up working best is trading it off vs first pick in the lineup drafting phase of the game start. The opposite to "the enemy's gate is down"
  - pete5x5 5y ago
    Exactly this - the ability to re-orient your view in a game (or in your mind in the case of the "enemy gate") can be a huge advantage. I personally play much better on bottom side in MOBA games and I have never understood why it can't be flipped. Even if the map is not 'symmetrical' the players could adapt to that change, rather than having to adapt to the change in side each game.
    - wincy 5y ago
      League of Legends: Wild Rift on iOS does this. You’re always the team on the “bottom half” of the map.
      - pete5x5 5y ago
        Yes! Although I didn't like the game (mobile is not usually my jam), it further solidifies my theory that it can work in desktop MOBAs.
  - Haga 5y ago
    Turn the camera for one team?
- blt 5y ago
  Did they try rotating the camera 180 degrees? I can understand how this might be confusing. Like a mirror track in Mario Kart, it would make the map feel totally different.
  - jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
    So, I suspect why they haven't gone with an approach like that is they want to preserve the layout for spectators. Dota is the biggest purse in all of esports, and they take the spectatorship quite seriously as a result.
    - sigstoat 5y ago
      as i recall, spectators receive game data, not a video stream. you can spectate in VR. so during real tournaments they could just broadcast from a spectator in the “standard” view.
  - ironman1478 5y ago
    Its really difficult. The exact placement of individual trees in the game matters a lot and it affects line of sight, which is a key component to Dota. If you flipped the view, not only would it just be weird, but what is visible can change I think based on the camera position. A tree that blocks a path in one camera position doesn't block it in another. A single tree's position sounds trivial, but navigating them is crucial at mid and high levels of play.
    - jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
      This is really perceptive and on point. I think something a lot of casual observers miss about Dota is it's a game of momentum with very small edges that accumulate. Compared to the other MOBAs it's the game that punishes you for a single error far more harshly.
  - ufo 5y ago
    It certainly is confusing. I remember that someone once made a video with the flipped map and most of the comments were about how weird it appeared: https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/5rmbd3/ https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/5rmbd3/ However, I wonder this is something that people would get used to, if they played it for a while. As far as I know, it was never seriously tried anywhere.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- dint 5y ago
  This is really interesting - could you share a source on how Valve/Icefrog make balancing decisions?
- bllguo 5y ago
  valve collects statistics, yes. Are they used? Who knows, there's hardly any transparency in the balancing process. I will say that Icefrog has (supposedly) been in charge since WC3, back when there was no conceivable way they could have collected meaningful statistics.. I also haven't seen definitive sources about consultations with top players. I've heard about bouncing ideas off pros in the distant past, but not with any regularity, and not recently. "Better balanced continuously with time" is pretty subjective..
- ironman1478 5y ago
  I made a comment about trees, but the other issue is that the map is super asymmetric. The bottom half (radiant) has a generally safer jungle and a very difficult to contest small pull (always been this way. Camp has just changed over time). The top team (dire) has a worse jungle, but it is closer to Roshan. The problem is people don't know how to use Roshan well (either capturing it or using the aegis), so that advantage isn't realized unless the team is at the top levels of the game. I think the perspective issue is there. But its not the entire 5%
BlueTemplar 5y ago
Zero-K does it too for the different factory matchups : https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/278908415756206080/868839104849264660/unknown.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/278908415756206080/86... (I assume this is for ranked 1vs1 rather than casual lobsterpot though ?)

emasirik 5y ago

Well, fighting games do offer high crush/low crush options, where hurtboxes (the vulnerable portion of your character) are shifted higher or lower, to make a move suited to cleanly beat either approaches from the air or sweeps. Beneficial properties like this can be balanced by a number of things -- speed, recovery time, damage, range, for a few examples! I realise you may already be familiar, but I figured it'd be worth expanding a little for other readers.

dragontamer 5y ago
High / Low options are rarely the option people think about at the high level. That's just a simple mixup (worst case scenario, you're forced to guess in case you can't react in time). What he was talking about is the DP, the "Dragon Punch", also known as Shoryuken, that Ryu / Ken are famous for in Street Fighter. The mindgame is that Shoryuken is 100% invincible: no matter what your opponent is doing, the Shoryuken / Dragon Punch will have infinite "priority" so to speak, it punches through all of your opponent's options because your hurtbox completely disappears during the move. That's right, your hurtbox is not merely "shifted", its gone. You're fully invincible. Of course, for balancing purposes, the Shoryuken has high-cooldown and high-periods of counter-hit status. Which means that although the Shoryuken "beats" all other attacks in the game, it also loses to a simple block into counter-hit. ------- So the mind game becomes one of timing. You approach the opponent, making them _THINK_ you're about to throw out an attack. They dragon-punch in response to your movement. But instead of attacking, you just block, and bam. You beat a player who spams dragon punch. Because of this extremely heavy "Dragon Punch wins vs all attacks" mindgame, there's a rich strategy / dance involved called footsies where the two players try to get each other to push the attack button first (especially if in a mirror match, Ryu vs Ryu or Ken vs Ken). The 2nd one to attack wins, because of the strange property of invincibility. ---- As far as Fighting Games go, the "Shoryuken" / Dragon punch is most similar to this "hard counter" found in RTS games. Shoryuken "hard counters" all other attacks in the game. While "simply holding the blocking button" consistently beats Shoryuken. Its a hard counter, always going to win if and only if you know exactly what the opponent will do. Because these options require understanding your opponent's mindset (when / timing of their use of Dragon Punches and/or blocking), they lead to incredibly fun mindgames.