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Harassment intentionally includes observers. If you do something to someone, and a third party observes it and is made uncomfortable, that is harassment in the

Harassment intentionally includes observers. If you do something to someone, and a third party observes it and is made uncomfortable, that is harassment in the workplace. To say "Guys are just ribbing eachother" ignores people that observe that behavior and find it uncomfortable/hostile/toxic. This is also an extremely generous description of what happened. Women were harassed, both sexually and not. Their pay was lower, their performance reviews were tougher, they were fired more frequently. Worse, they were groped, sexually harassed/assaulted, one of them commit suicide over it. To compare "guys just ribbing" to what happened is a real gross take. > I may be biased, I spent 4 years in the military where ribbing was literally CONSTANT (it was worse than anyplace else I've worked) and the women there really had to have a thick skin. (I'm also 49 years old and a lot has changed.) "Women have to have thick skin" is just nonsense to not have to type "The women are harassed relentlessly". It's also worth noting that the military is a toxic cesspit for sexual abuse. Comparing any sane workplace to the military is a joke. Nobody should want to be like the military, including the military.

craftinator 5y ago
> It's also worth noting that the military is a toxic cesspit for sexual abuse. Comparing any sane workplace to the military is a joke. Nobody should want to be like the military, including the military. Can confirm true from experience. To be fair, the military (USMC experience only) is structured to intentionally harass all members below certain ranks continuously, with the idea being that it keeps them sharp and willing to follow orders that put them or others directly in harm's way. Sexual harassment was punished severely, but at the lowest levels possible, and wasn't often reported.
- arbitrage 5y ago
  > Sexual harassment was punished severely, but at the lowest levels possible, and wasn't often reported. So, not severely, then?
  - craftinator 5y ago
    > So, not severely, then? Probably could have phrased it better. The military culture is very different than civilian culture, jokes and turns of phrase that would be completely unacceptable in the civilian world are common, and the tolerance for them is higher. It's very much like the difference between working an office job, and going out to a seedy bar; different culture, different expectations and rules. But as for what I said, there was a lot of borderline sexual harassment (and much of it that I witnessed not involving females at all) that went unreported. But when something was reported, it stayed at lower levels most times, and involved squad and platoon level justice, which is very, very severe. Like more severe than is allowed under the UCMJ.
- void_mint 5y ago
  > Sexual assault in the United States armed forces is an ongoing issue which has received extensive media coverage in the past. A 2012 Pentagon survey found that approximately 26,000 women and men were sexually assaulted that year; of those, only 3,374 cases were reported.[1] In 2013, a new Pentagon report found that 5,061 troops reported cases of assault. Some are optimistic that this increase in reports is indicative of victims "growing more comfortable in the system".[2] Of the reported cases, only 484 cases went to trial; 376 resulted in convictions.[3] Another investigation found that one in five women in the United States Air Force who were sexually assaulted by service members reported it, for one in 15 men.[4] > A survey for the Department of Defense conducted in 2015 found that in the past year 52% of active service members who reported sexual assault had experienced retaliation in the form of professional, social, and administrative actions or punishments.[5] In addition to retaliation against soldiers remaining in active service, many former service members who reported sexual assaults were forced to leave after being discharged. Reasons for discharge included having a "personality disorder" or engaging in misconduct related to the sexual assault such as fraternization or (prior to the end of don't ask, don't tell) homosexuality, even if the homosexual conduct was non-consensual.[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault_in_the_United_States_military https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault_in_the_United_S... I would say that the punishment seeming severe is mostly a display.
  - craftinator 5y ago
    I think people may be missing the connection between punishments being with severe, and kept at a low level. A platoon will do a lot more to punish someone than a battalion. Justice under the UCMJ is similar to how a grand jury operates, where the highest ranking officers will hear a case with evidence, and make decisions about guilt and punishment. Platoon level punishment is much more freeform, and tends to ignore those rules about type and duration of punishment; much more corporal in nature.
pmarreck 5y ago
> "Women have to have thick skin" is just nonsense to not have to type "The women are harassed relentlessly". Which is also a false translation (and thus a strawman) of what I said. The vast majority were treated quite damn well. > It's also worth noting that the military is a toxic cesspit for sexual abuse. I did some Googling here and found that in 2013, 0.9% of all military members reported sexual assault. I don't know how that compares to civilian life, and I'll just toss this out there, I bet this varies A TON by military branch, and I will leave it at that. > Comparing any sane workplace to the military is a joke. Nobody should want to be like the military, including the military. You sound like a person who would never make it in the military. I learned a lot of good things in the military: Integrity, diversity, work ethic, respect, adventure, confidence, attention to detail, and what an actual 8-hour shift felt like (which I would never see again; most work for corps done since has gone over 8 hours/day). I also had an absolute blast after work and on weekends, it was a happy coming-of-age time for me. Perhaps it was due to it being the USAF and not the USMC, but it was positive for me.
- void_mint 5y ago
  > Which is also a false translation (and thus a strawman) of what I said. The vast majority were treated quite damn well. I copied and pasted exactly what you wrote. > I did some Googling here and found that in 2013, 0.9% of all military members reported sexual assault. I don't know how that compares to civilian life, and I'll just toss this out there, I bet this varies A TON by military branch, and I will leave it at that If you care to educate yourself, in another post I made in this thread I referenced the actual data on sexual abuse in the military. The dramatic majority goes unreported, and the cases that do get reported face retaliation from superiors. It’s a toxic cesspit. edit I'll just add them > Sexual assault in the United States armed forces is an ongoing issue which has received extensive media coverage in the past. A 2012 Pentagon survey found that approximately 26,000 women and men were sexually assaulted that year; of those, only 3,374 cases were reported.[1] In 2013, a new Pentagon report found that 5,061 troops reported cases of assault. Some are optimistic that this increase in reports is indicative of victims "growing more comfortable in the system".[2] Of the reported cases, only 484 cases went to trial; 376 resulted in convictions.[3] Another investigation found that one in five women in the United States Air Force who were sexually assaulted by service members reported it, for one in 15 men.[4] 20% of women reported. > A survey for the Department of Defense conducted in 2015 found that in the past year 52% of active service members who reported sexual assault had experienced retaliation in the form of professional, social, and administrative actions or punishments.[5] In addition to retaliation against soldiers remaining in active service, many former service members who reported sexual assaults were forced to leave after being discharged. Reasons for discharge included having a "personality disorder" or engaging in misconduct related to the sexual assault such as fraternization or (prior to the end of don't ask, don't tell) homosexuality, even if the homosexual conduct was non-consensual.[6] 52% of active service members who reported experienced retaliation. 52%. Getting discharged for homosexuality as a result of _non consensual_ homosexual contact. Tell me again about all that integrity and respect in the military. > You sound like a person who would never make it in the military. I don’t care, truly at all, if you think I’d make it in the military. I criticized an obviously disgusting group (that you’re a part of), and you’re making a judgement of my character out of adversarialism.

craftinator 5y ago

> It's also worth noting that the military is a toxic cesspit for sexual abuse. Comparing any sane workplace to the military is a joke. Nobody should want to be like the military, including the military. Can confirm true from experience. To be fair, the military (USMC experience only) is structured to intentionally harass all members below certain ranks continuously, with the idea being that it keeps them sharp and willing to follow orders that put them or others directly in harm's way. Sexual harassment was punished severely, but at the lowest levels possible, and wasn't often reported.

arbitrage 5y ago
> Sexual harassment was punished severely, but at the lowest levels possible, and wasn't often reported. So, not severely, then?
- craftinator 5y ago
  > So, not severely, then? Probably could have phrased it better. The military culture is very different than civilian culture, jokes and turns of phrase that would be completely unacceptable in the civilian world are common, and the tolerance for them is higher. It's very much like the difference between working an office job, and going out to a seedy bar; different culture, different expectations and rules. But as for what I said, there was a lot of borderline sexual harassment (and much of it that I witnessed not involving females at all) that went unreported. But when something was reported, it stayed at lower levels most times, and involved squad and platoon level justice, which is very, very severe. Like more severe than is allowed under the UCMJ.
void_mint 5y ago
> Sexual assault in the United States armed forces is an ongoing issue which has received extensive media coverage in the past. A 2012 Pentagon survey found that approximately 26,000 women and men were sexually assaulted that year; of those, only 3,374 cases were reported.[1] In 2013, a new Pentagon report found that 5,061 troops reported cases of assault. Some are optimistic that this increase in reports is indicative of victims "growing more comfortable in the system".[2] Of the reported cases, only 484 cases went to trial; 376 resulted in convictions.[3] Another investigation found that one in five women in the United States Air Force who were sexually assaulted by service members reported it, for one in 15 men.[4] > A survey for the Department of Defense conducted in 2015 found that in the past year 52% of active service members who reported sexual assault had experienced retaliation in the form of professional, social, and administrative actions or punishments.[5] In addition to retaliation against soldiers remaining in active service, many former service members who reported sexual assaults were forced to leave after being discharged. Reasons for discharge included having a "personality disorder" or engaging in misconduct related to the sexual assault such as fraternization or (prior to the end of don't ask, don't tell) homosexuality, even if the homosexual conduct was non-consensual.[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault_in_the_United_States_military https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault_in_the_United_S... I would say that the punishment seeming severe is mostly a display.
- craftinator 5y ago
  I think people may be missing the connection between punishments being with severe, and kept at a low level. A platoon will do a lot more to punish someone than a battalion. Justice under the UCMJ is similar to how a grand jury operates, where the highest ranking officers will hear a case with evidence, and make decisions about guilt and punishment. Platoon level punishment is much more freeform, and tends to ignore those rules about type and duration of punishment; much more corporal in nature.

pmarreck 5y ago

> "Women have to have thick skin" is just nonsense to not have to type "The women are harassed relentlessly". Which is also a false translation (and thus a strawman) of what I said. The vast majority were treated quite damn well. > It's also worth noting that the military is a toxic cesspit for sexual abuse. I did some Googling here and found that in 2013, 0.9% of all military members reported sexual assault. I don't know how that compares to civilian life, and I'll just toss this out there, I bet this varies A TON by military branch, and I will leave it at that. > Comparing any sane workplace to the military is a joke. Nobody should want to be like the military, including the military. You sound like a person who would never make it in the military. I learned a lot of good things in the military: Integrity, diversity, work ethic, respect, adventure, confidence, attention to detail, and what an actual 8-hour shift felt like (which I would never see again; most work for corps done since has gone over 8 hours/day). I also had an absolute blast after work and on weekends, it was a happy coming-of-age time for me. Perhaps it was due to it being the USAF and not the USMC, but it was positive for me.

void_mint 5y ago
> Which is also a false translation (and thus a strawman) of what I said. The vast majority were treated quite damn well. I copied and pasted exactly what you wrote. > I did some Googling here and found that in 2013, 0.9% of all military members reported sexual assault. I don't know how that compares to civilian life, and I'll just toss this out there, I bet this varies A TON by military branch, and I will leave it at that If you care to educate yourself, in another post I made in this thread I referenced the actual data on sexual abuse in the military. The dramatic majority goes unreported, and the cases that do get reported face retaliation from superiors. It’s a toxic cesspit. edit I'll just add them > Sexual assault in the United States armed forces is an ongoing issue which has received extensive media coverage in the past. A 2012 Pentagon survey found that approximately 26,000 women and men were sexually assaulted that year; of those, only 3,374 cases were reported.[1] In 2013, a new Pentagon report found that 5,061 troops reported cases of assault. Some are optimistic that this increase in reports is indicative of victims "growing more comfortable in the system".[2] Of the reported cases, only 484 cases went to trial; 376 resulted in convictions.[3] Another investigation found that one in five women in the United States Air Force who were sexually assaulted by service members reported it, for one in 15 men.[4] 20% of women reported. > A survey for the Department of Defense conducted in 2015 found that in the past year 52% of active service members who reported sexual assault had experienced retaliation in the form of professional, social, and administrative actions or punishments.[5] In addition to retaliation against soldiers remaining in active service, many former service members who reported sexual assaults were forced to leave after being discharged. Reasons for discharge included having a "personality disorder" or engaging in misconduct related to the sexual assault such as fraternization or (prior to the end of don't ask, don't tell) homosexuality, even if the homosexual conduct was non-consensual.[6] 52% of active service members who reported experienced retaliation. 52%. Getting discharged for homosexuality as a result of _non consensual_ homosexual contact. Tell me again about all that integrity and respect in the military. > You sound like a person who would never make it in the military. I don’t care, truly at all, if you think I’d make it in the military. I criticized an obviously disgusting group (that you’re a part of), and you’re making a judgement of my character out of adversarialism.