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Honest question: Guys often "rib" each other, it's part of the culture among males. When you throw women into the mix and they get "ribbed" (perhaps for being

Honest question: Guys often "rib" each other, it's part of the culture among males. When you throw women into the mix and they get "ribbed" (perhaps for being "one of the guys," as it were) does this often become sexual harassment? Perhaps the culture of "ribbing" needs to go away for everyone, or at least from the workplace, but it has always been the case for me that a close friend or acquaintance typically only "ribs" you when they know you know they're not being serious. (That is why the definition of ribbing is "good-natured teasing".) Of course, the danger there is misinterpretation (perhaps with self-fulfilling negative expectations primed by media, but I digress) I may be biased, I spent 4 years in the military where ribbing was literally CONSTANT (it was worse than anyplace else I've worked) and the women there really had to have a thick skin. (I'm also 49 years old and a lot has changed.) Note: Some of the claims made here go far beyond "ribbing". I'm not talking about those.

underseacables 5y ago
I think it’s just important for everyone to recognize the new paradigm: make no comments about your coworkers whatsoever, do not complement, do not ask about their personal life, do not talk about politics, because the only safe thing to do is to be as robotic as possible.
- andrewzah 5y ago
  How hard is it to not make inappropriate comments about someone or their body? It's -exceedingly- easy to not be a creepy dick to one's coworkers and fellow human beings. One only has to act like a robot if they have zero social awareness or tact.
  - fleddr 5y ago
    I would agree that this is easy, but I did run into a weird edge case. First to be clear, I would never comment on anybody's body or clothes, especially not in the workplace. This is not to comply with some rule, I wouldn't have the urge to do that in the first place. It's weird and unneeded. Anyway, the edge case. My female coworker is very passionate about making custom dresses. One day, on the day before our country's Queen's Day, she comes to work in an absolute master piece of a custom dress, dedicated to the festivities to come. The quality of that dress, the attention to detail, was out of this world. All custom made. She walks over to a group of devs (five men, one is me) and basically presents the dress, yet without saying a word. And now comes the awful thing. By chance, all of us had one of those mandatory "ethical workplace" trainings the day before. And this literal example, some guy commenting on a dress was used as an example of an absolute no-go. Which sounds reasonable to me, in every context but this one. I had a strong urge to compliment her on her skill and the incredible result of her tireless effort. Surely, she worked on this forever, and this was to be a proud moment of display. But we all kept our mouth shut, and picked the safe side of things. She left defeated, perhaps humiliated. I know, it's a very uncommon situation, but the dynamic is interesting. In the gray zone area, most people would prefer to better be safe than sorry. Which almost every time is best anyway, but not this time. I'll end with an aspect much more common. Feedback, as in professional feedback. Recently a study showed that VCs are far less critical towards female founders compared to male ones. Males would get very direct, sometimes harsh, and detailed negative feedback, whilst women would get the far less usable vague sugar-coated version of it. Supposedly, out of fear. It shows hyper tensions, paranoia. If that gets out of hand, women and other minorities will be treated as radio-active objects, which is in nobody's interest. The way I see it, really bad men (subject of article), cause this distrustful relation between perfectly good people.
    - void_mint 5y ago
      I think one of the main tenants of allyship (I'm comfortable having weirdos call me "woke" for using the word allyship) is being accepting when told you did something wrong, and working to cultivate relationships in which a person is able to _simply_ say "I didn't like that", to which that feedback is taken seriously and responsibly. I mostly think the argument "Well men will just start treating women and minorities will start being treated like radio active objects" is cultivated and pushed forward by men that aren't willing to hear they did something wrong. Binary thinking is _the problem_. If you make a comment with good intent, but it was taken poorly, the fear is you'll be labeled as a bad person/sexist/whatever. In reality, if your intent is good, and your response to being told you did something wrong was "I'm sorry, I won't do that again", nothing else really has to happen.
      - fleddr 5y ago
        "I mostly think the argument "Well men will just start treating women and minorities will start being treated like radio active objects" is cultivated and pushed forward by men that aren't willing to hear they did something wrong." I agree. It's a narrative from the "bad" men, yet it can instill paranoia on the good ones, where they become too careful. Is this "walking on eggshells" thinking justified? No, I think in most interactions good intent would be detected, and occasionally a minor "correction" follows if not. None of this should be even in the domain of HR reports, job loss, the like. Like you said. But still, despite that, I do see minor paranoia on the rise. As in the example I gave regarding the dress. My heart was screaming to say the nice thing, the compliment she deserved so much, but I picked the safer option. Likewise, code reviews. With a male engineer, I would simply say this: there's a mistake in your code. It's over here. Here's why it's a mistake, and what its impact would be if left unsolved. A fairly clinical and dry transfer of information. With a female engineer, although I don't want to, I find myself to be far more careful. I aim to remove any trace or shred of a doubt of the message, or the tone of the message, coming across as in any way being dismissive, oppressive, "mansplaining", name any possible negative feeling one can have about critical feedback. It takes me 3 times as long, and I don't know if it helps at all. But it's another example of minor paranoia straining work relations. It's an odd thing to realize that the men concerned in the article specifically treat women in a bad way, yet at the same time normal (say, good men) might treat women too carefully. I don't have a solution, these are just observations.
  - pmarreck 5y ago
    > One only has to act like a robot if they have zero social awareness or tact. Just noting here that the vast majority of people do not have 100% perfect social awareness or tact, and making this the bar for harsh judgment of human behavior is arguably inhumane.
    - iamstupidsimple 5y ago
      Not to mention it basically makes the workplace extremely hostile to somebody who isn't neurotypical.
      - pmarreck 5y ago
        That is an excellent point
- vkou 5y ago
  In the case of Blizzard, the more relevant advice is "Don't grope your coworkers, don't give subordinates unsolicited advice on how to perform sexual acts, don't get drunk at work and hit on your coworkers, don't sleep with subordinates, and don't distribute nude pictures of your coworkers over e-mail. Also, don't retaliate against people who report harassment." I think a moderately intelligent, moderately socialized human being may be quite capable of avoiding this minefield of do's and don'ts without being a robot.
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  I mean if you're not able to tell when people are uncomfortable yea. Otherwise just be respectful. One of the blizzard employees killed herself after being sexually harassed and you're trying to play this off by making a strawman.
  - void_mint 5y ago
    Yeah the parent's comment is just a person refusing to have any amount of tact. Harassment isn't defined as an isolated incident, nor is it immediately a huge deal. Almost all rational humans have some amount of tolerance for ambiguity, if you really can't possibly fathom what would or would not be offensive to a person, you have absolutely no business working alongside other people. Not to mention, a lot of what was reported couldn't possibly have been ambiguous. Commenting on a coworker's breasts (the report of a woman repeatedly being questioned on whether her breasts were real, and then having a manager demand to feel them to verify) is just totally unacceptable.
- madamelic 5y ago
  Yes, that is a valid response. But like... just don't comment on people's bodies. That's weird as heck. If you aren't having sex with them, commenting on their breasts or making sexually charged statements at work is insanely inappropriate. One story I heard was that a women with large breasts was having a blast playing at an internal Battle of the Bands and one of the judges said, in front of the crowd on a mic, "I like your big... talents". WHAT THE F___?! How can that be said at a work event and HR isn't like throwing down the gauntlet.
- brazzy 5y ago
  It's generally enough to just not be an asshole. But if that's too difficult to you, sure.
  - commandlinefan 5y ago
    Seems to be too difficult for you.
arsome 5y ago
Eh... take a look at some of the shit that was reported in the lawsuits, seems a lot worse than mis-interpreted "ribbing".
- pmarreck 5y ago
  See the note at the end of my comment
void_mint 5y ago
Harassment intentionally includes observers. If you do something to someone, and a third party observes it and is made uncomfortable, that is harassment in the workplace. To say "Guys are just ribbing eachother" ignores people that observe that behavior and find it uncomfortable/hostile/toxic. This is also an extremely generous description of what happened. Women were harassed, both sexually and not. Their pay was lower, their performance reviews were tougher, they were fired more frequently. Worse, they were groped, sexually harassed/assaulted, one of them commit suicide over it. To compare "guys just ribbing" to what happened is a real gross take. > I may be biased, I spent 4 years in the military where ribbing was literally CONSTANT (it was worse than anyplace else I've worked) and the women there really had to have a thick skin. (I'm also 49 years old and a lot has changed.) "Women have to have thick skin" is just nonsense to not have to type "The women are harassed relentlessly". It's also worth noting that the military is a toxic cesspit for sexual abuse. Comparing any sane workplace to the military is a joke. Nobody should want to be like the military, including the military.
- craftinator 5y ago
  > It's also worth noting that the military is a toxic cesspit for sexual abuse. Comparing any sane workplace to the military is a joke. Nobody should want to be like the military, including the military. Can confirm true from experience. To be fair, the military (USMC experience only) is structured to intentionally harass all members below certain ranks continuously, with the idea being that it keeps them sharp and willing to follow orders that put them or others directly in harm's way. Sexual harassment was punished severely, but at the lowest levels possible, and wasn't often reported.
  - arbitrage 5y ago
    > Sexual harassment was punished severely, but at the lowest levels possible, and wasn't often reported. So, not severely, then?
    - craftinator 5y ago
      > So, not severely, then? Probably could have phrased it better. The military culture is very different than civilian culture, jokes and turns of phrase that would be completely unacceptable in the civilian world are common, and the tolerance for them is higher. It's very much like the difference between working an office job, and going out to a seedy bar; different culture, different expectations and rules. But as for what I said, there was a lot of borderline sexual harassment (and much of it that I witnessed not involving females at all) that went unreported. But when something was reported, it stayed at lower levels most times, and involved squad and platoon level justice, which is very, very severe. Like more severe than is allowed under the UCMJ.
kenjackson 5y ago
The culture of ribbing at work probably needs to go. I've worked in environments with lots of ribbing and some with virtually none. The one with none is way more comfortable. Sometimes the ribbing can cause comradery, but often ends up being a source of friction, even amongst all males.
brazzy 5y ago
> That is why the definition of ribbing is "good-natured teasing". The problem is that there may not in fact be anything "good-natured" about it - on both sides - yet the culture forces the recipient to act like it is or they will be punished. In other words: the only way in which that kind of thing is not toxic is when a recipient can at any time say "that's not funny, stop it!", and the reaction will be a sincere apology and an actual stopping. Now how often is that actually the case?
- pmarreck 5y ago
  Literally my entire 80's high school experience is peppered with instances (at a constant rate) of being ribbed and being unable to say "that's not funny, stop it!" because it "wasn't cool". Are you saying my entire generation grew up in toxicity? I mean... It's entirely possible, even if it seemed more innocent at the time.
  - ben_w 5y ago
    I’d say that, yes. Bluntly, the entire American school system looks pretty bad from the, in my case, outside perspective of someone who went though UK Catholic secondary school (‘secondary’ is an almost but not quite perfect match of US high school).
mempko 5y ago
Would you have preferred no ribbing? I think most people, including men, would.
- pmarreck 5y ago
  I would have preferred some lighthearted ribbing. Again, it can be interpreted as a sign of intimacy. I don't know how else to explain it. One of my best friends actually ribs me a lot. And because I am self-confident and candid, I can take it. Heck, my significant other and I rib each other plenty. We know each others' strengths and weaknesses. It is arguable that being fine with some ribbing is proof of comfortableness with oneself and a lack of insecurity. But, yes, people like you exist. I once teased a former boss for his fear of puppies (yes, puppies. Not just "dogs"... Puppies) by playing a prank where some puppies barked from behind his desk. He jumped. It did not fly very well. Actually, in hindsight, perhaps don't tease your boss, even if you think you're on good terms with them...
jjk166 5y ago
> it has always been the case for me that a close friend or acquaintance typically only "ribs" you when they know you know they're not being serious. As long as everyone is in on the joke, it's fine. I've never heard of a situation where all parties agreed something was a good natured joke and it was still labelled sexual harassment. In virtually every case the "I was just ribbing" is conveyed after the fact in the same tone of voice as "It's just a prank bro" - even if it was genuinely innocent on the harasser's part, it obviously wasn't apparent to others, and that "if" is often questionable. A really simple rule to follow is "if you don't know how someone will react otherwise, treat them politely with kindness and respect." This rule works in 100% of situations and costs nothing to follow. No one has ever or will ever say "man I wish the first time I talked to that guy he teased me about my physical appearance, what a jerk for denying me that taste of his quick witted humor."
- pmarreck 5y ago
  That's a fair suggestion
psyc 5y ago
I've witnessed ongoing sexual harassment in the game industry, and there is nothing good natured about it. Often it was ribbing, but it was also overtly sexual, demeaning, and clearly a game to see how badly they could affect the victim before she went to HR. Which never actually happened, at least not that became public knowledge. I was ribbed a lot too, but obviously not sexually. And I still really could have done without it.
ben_w 5y ago
What do you mean by “ribbing”? Especially in the context of your military culture (about which my entire knowledge comes from hoping the fiction I read was based on more than imagination)?
- pmarreck 5y ago
  rib·bing /ˈribiNG/ noun: ribbing 1. a riblike structure or pattern, especially a band of knitting in rib. "a fleecy sweatshirt with ribbing at neck, cuffs, and hem" 2. informal good-natured teasing. "he took a good deal of ribbing with the utmost good humor" I refer to the 2nd definition
  - ben_w 5y ago
    I already knew the definition, I was asking for examples. Were they sexual, anatomical, scatalogical, combative, suggesting one person was someone else’s toy, something else, or all of the above?
    - pmarreck 5y ago
      oh, sorry. let's see... anatomical (I got called "HEED" because my hat size was larger than anyone else's there (it's a reference to So I Married An Axe Murderer, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-OCjvbV2Z4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-OCjvbV2Z4))... sexual (your manliness was often called into question, usually humorously), combative (sometimes your reputation was called into question)... There are probably more categories of teasing I saw
elliekelly 5y ago
Women can and do participate in “ribbing” and understand things like jokes and context but sexual harassment is not the product of women misunderstanding or misinterpreting men ribbing them. The difference between ribbing and sexual harassment is pretty clear: the things that are said aren’t said in good fun. They’re said to intimidate, embarrass, and demean.
- pmarreck 5y ago
  > They’re said to intimidate, embarrass, and demean OK so, since this mentality absolutely and wantonly pervades "male culture", the real problem is male toxicity to other males which spills over towards women?

underseacables 5y ago

I think it’s just important for everyone to recognize the new paradigm: make no comments about your coworkers whatsoever, do not complement, do not ask about their personal life, do not talk about politics, because the only safe thing to do is to be as robotic as possible.

andrewzah 5y ago
How hard is it to not make inappropriate comments about someone or their body? It's -exceedingly- easy to not be a creepy dick to one's coworkers and fellow human beings. One only has to act like a robot if they have zero social awareness or tact.
- fleddr 5y ago
  I would agree that this is easy, but I did run into a weird edge case. First to be clear, I would never comment on anybody's body or clothes, especially not in the workplace. This is not to comply with some rule, I wouldn't have the urge to do that in the first place. It's weird and unneeded. Anyway, the edge case. My female coworker is very passionate about making custom dresses. One day, on the day before our country's Queen's Day, she comes to work in an absolute master piece of a custom dress, dedicated to the festivities to come. The quality of that dress, the attention to detail, was out of this world. All custom made. She walks over to a group of devs (five men, one is me) and basically presents the dress, yet without saying a word. And now comes the awful thing. By chance, all of us had one of those mandatory "ethical workplace" trainings the day before. And this literal example, some guy commenting on a dress was used as an example of an absolute no-go. Which sounds reasonable to me, in every context but this one. I had a strong urge to compliment her on her skill and the incredible result of her tireless effort. Surely, she worked on this forever, and this was to be a proud moment of display. But we all kept our mouth shut, and picked the safe side of things. She left defeated, perhaps humiliated. I know, it's a very uncommon situation, but the dynamic is interesting. In the gray zone area, most people would prefer to better be safe than sorry. Which almost every time is best anyway, but not this time. I'll end with an aspect much more common. Feedback, as in professional feedback. Recently a study showed that VCs are far less critical towards female founders compared to male ones. Males would get very direct, sometimes harsh, and detailed negative feedback, whilst women would get the far less usable vague sugar-coated version of it. Supposedly, out of fear. It shows hyper tensions, paranoia. If that gets out of hand, women and other minorities will be treated as radio-active objects, which is in nobody's interest. The way I see it, really bad men (subject of article), cause this distrustful relation between perfectly good people.
  - void_mint 5y ago
    I think one of the main tenants of allyship (I'm comfortable having weirdos call me "woke" for using the word allyship) is being accepting when told you did something wrong, and working to cultivate relationships in which a person is able to _simply_ say "I didn't like that", to which that feedback is taken seriously and responsibly. I mostly think the argument "Well men will just start treating women and minorities will start being treated like radio active objects" is cultivated and pushed forward by men that aren't willing to hear they did something wrong. Binary thinking is _the problem_. If you make a comment with good intent, but it was taken poorly, the fear is you'll be labeled as a bad person/sexist/whatever. In reality, if your intent is good, and your response to being told you did something wrong was "I'm sorry, I won't do that again", nothing else really has to happen.
    - fleddr 5y ago
      "I mostly think the argument "Well men will just start treating women and minorities will start being treated like radio active objects" is cultivated and pushed forward by men that aren't willing to hear they did something wrong." I agree. It's a narrative from the "bad" men, yet it can instill paranoia on the good ones, where they become too careful. Is this "walking on eggshells" thinking justified? No, I think in most interactions good intent would be detected, and occasionally a minor "correction" follows if not. None of this should be even in the domain of HR reports, job loss, the like. Like you said. But still, despite that, I do see minor paranoia on the rise. As in the example I gave regarding the dress. My heart was screaming to say the nice thing, the compliment she deserved so much, but I picked the safer option. Likewise, code reviews. With a male engineer, I would simply say this: there's a mistake in your code. It's over here. Here's why it's a mistake, and what its impact would be if left unsolved. A fairly clinical and dry transfer of information. With a female engineer, although I don't want to, I find myself to be far more careful. I aim to remove any trace or shred of a doubt of the message, or the tone of the message, coming across as in any way being dismissive, oppressive, "mansplaining", name any possible negative feeling one can have about critical feedback. It takes me 3 times as long, and I don't know if it helps at all. But it's another example of minor paranoia straining work relations. It's an odd thing to realize that the men concerned in the article specifically treat women in a bad way, yet at the same time normal (say, good men) might treat women too carefully. I don't have a solution, these are just observations.
- pmarreck 5y ago
  > One only has to act like a robot if they have zero social awareness or tact. Just noting here that the vast majority of people do not have 100% perfect social awareness or tact, and making this the bar for harsh judgment of human behavior is arguably inhumane.
  - iamstupidsimple 5y ago
    Not to mention it basically makes the workplace extremely hostile to somebody who isn't neurotypical.
    - pmarreck 5y ago
      That is an excellent point
vkou 5y ago
In the case of Blizzard, the more relevant advice is "Don't grope your coworkers, don't give subordinates unsolicited advice on how to perform sexual acts, don't get drunk at work and hit on your coworkers, don't sleep with subordinates, and don't distribute nude pictures of your coworkers over e-mail. Also, don't retaliate against people who report harassment." I think a moderately intelligent, moderately socialized human being may be quite capable of avoiding this minefield of do's and don'ts without being a robot.
colinmhayes 5y ago
I mean if you're not able to tell when people are uncomfortable yea. Otherwise just be respectful. One of the blizzard employees killed herself after being sexually harassed and you're trying to play this off by making a strawman.
- void_mint 5y ago
  Yeah the parent's comment is just a person refusing to have any amount of tact. Harassment isn't defined as an isolated incident, nor is it immediately a huge deal. Almost all rational humans have some amount of tolerance for ambiguity, if you really can't possibly fathom what would or would not be offensive to a person, you have absolutely no business working alongside other people. Not to mention, a lot of what was reported couldn't possibly have been ambiguous. Commenting on a coworker's breasts (the report of a woman repeatedly being questioned on whether her breasts were real, and then having a manager demand to feel them to verify) is just totally unacceptable.
madamelic 5y ago
Yes, that is a valid response. But like... just don't comment on people's bodies. That's weird as heck. If you aren't having sex with them, commenting on their breasts or making sexually charged statements at work is insanely inappropriate. One story I heard was that a women with large breasts was having a blast playing at an internal Battle of the Bands and one of the judges said, in front of the crowd on a mic, "I like your big... talents". WHAT THE F___?! How can that be said at a work event and HR isn't like throwing down the gauntlet.
brazzy 5y ago
It's generally enough to just not be an asshole. But if that's too difficult to you, sure.
- commandlinefan 5y ago
  Seems to be too difficult for you.

arsome 5y ago

Eh... take a look at some of the shit that was reported in the lawsuits, seems a lot worse than mis-interpreted "ribbing".

pmarreck 5y ago
See the note at the end of my comment

void_mint 5y ago

Harassment intentionally includes observers. If you do something to someone, and a third party observes it and is made uncomfortable, that is harassment in the workplace. To say "Guys are just ribbing eachother" ignores people that observe that behavior and find it uncomfortable/hostile/toxic. This is also an extremely generous description of what happened. Women were harassed, both sexually and not. Their pay was lower, their performance reviews were tougher, they were fired more frequently. Worse, they were groped, sexually harassed/assaulted, one of them commit suicide over it. To compare "guys just ribbing" to what happened is a real gross take. > I may be biased, I spent 4 years in the military where ribbing was literally CONSTANT (it was worse than anyplace else I've worked) and the women there really had to have a thick skin. (I'm also 49 years old and a lot has changed.) "Women have to have thick skin" is just nonsense to not have to type "The women are harassed relentlessly". It's also worth noting that the military is a toxic cesspit for sexual abuse. Comparing any sane workplace to the military is a joke. Nobody should want to be like the military, including the military.

craftinator 5y ago
> It's also worth noting that the military is a toxic cesspit for sexual abuse. Comparing any sane workplace to the military is a joke. Nobody should want to be like the military, including the military. Can confirm true from experience. To be fair, the military (USMC experience only) is structured to intentionally harass all members below certain ranks continuously, with the idea being that it keeps them sharp and willing to follow orders that put them or others directly in harm's way. Sexual harassment was punished severely, but at the lowest levels possible, and wasn't often reported.
- arbitrage 5y ago
  > Sexual harassment was punished severely, but at the lowest levels possible, and wasn't often reported. So, not severely, then?
  - craftinator 5y ago
    > So, not severely, then? Probably could have phrased it better. The military culture is very different than civilian culture, jokes and turns of phrase that would be completely unacceptable in the civilian world are common, and the tolerance for them is higher. It's very much like the difference between working an office job, and going out to a seedy bar; different culture, different expectations and rules. But as for what I said, there was a lot of borderline sexual harassment (and much of it that I witnessed not involving females at all) that went unreported. But when something was reported, it stayed at lower levels most times, and involved squad and platoon level justice, which is very, very severe. Like more severe than is allowed under the UCMJ.

kenjackson 5y ago

The culture of ribbing at work probably needs to go. I've worked in environments with lots of ribbing and some with virtually none. The one with none is way more comfortable. Sometimes the ribbing can cause comradery, but often ends up being a source of friction, even amongst all males.

brazzy 5y ago

> That is why the definition of ribbing is "good-natured teasing". The problem is that there may not in fact be anything "good-natured" about it - on both sides - yet the culture forces the recipient to act like it is or they will be punished. In other words: the only way in which that kind of thing is not toxic is when a recipient can at any time say "that's not funny, stop it!", and the reaction will be a sincere apology and an actual stopping. Now how often is that actually the case?

pmarreck 5y ago
Literally my entire 80's high school experience is peppered with instances (at a constant rate) of being ribbed and being unable to say "that's not funny, stop it!" because it "wasn't cool". Are you saying my entire generation grew up in toxicity? I mean... It's entirely possible, even if it seemed more innocent at the time.
- ben_w 5y ago
  I’d say that, yes. Bluntly, the entire American school system looks pretty bad from the, in my case, outside perspective of someone who went though UK Catholic secondary school (‘secondary’ is an almost but not quite perfect match of US high school).

mempko 5y ago

Would you have preferred no ribbing? I think most people, including men, would.

pmarreck 5y ago
I would have preferred some lighthearted ribbing. Again, it can be interpreted as a sign of intimacy. I don't know how else to explain it. One of my best friends actually ribs me a lot. And because I am self-confident and candid, I can take it. Heck, my significant other and I rib each other plenty. We know each others' strengths and weaknesses. It is arguable that being fine with some ribbing is proof of comfortableness with oneself and a lack of insecurity. But, yes, people like you exist. I once teased a former boss for his fear of puppies (yes, puppies. Not just "dogs"... Puppies) by playing a prank where some puppies barked from behind his desk. He jumped. It did not fly very well. Actually, in hindsight, perhaps don't tease your boss, even if you think you're on good terms with them...

jjk166 5y ago

> it has always been the case for me that a close friend or acquaintance typically only "ribs" you when they know you know they're not being serious. As long as everyone is in on the joke, it's fine. I've never heard of a situation where all parties agreed something was a good natured joke and it was still labelled sexual harassment. In virtually every case the "I was just ribbing" is conveyed after the fact in the same tone of voice as "It's just a prank bro" - even if it was genuinely innocent on the harasser's part, it obviously wasn't apparent to others, and that "if" is often questionable. A really simple rule to follow is "if you don't know how someone will react otherwise, treat them politely with kindness and respect." This rule works in 100% of situations and costs nothing to follow. No one has ever or will ever say "man I wish the first time I talked to that guy he teased me about my physical appearance, what a jerk for denying me that taste of his quick witted humor."

pmarreck 5y ago
That's a fair suggestion

psyc 5y ago

I've witnessed ongoing sexual harassment in the game industry, and there is nothing good natured about it. Often it was ribbing, but it was also overtly sexual, demeaning, and clearly a game to see how badly they could affect the victim before she went to HR. Which never actually happened, at least not that became public knowledge. I was ribbed a lot too, but obviously not sexually. And I still really could have done without it.

ben_w 5y ago

What do you mean by “ribbing”? Especially in the context of your military culture (about which my entire knowledge comes from hoping the fiction I read was based on more than imagination)?

pmarreck 5y ago
rib·bing /ˈribiNG/ noun: ribbing 1. a riblike structure or pattern, especially a band of knitting in rib. "a fleecy sweatshirt with ribbing at neck, cuffs, and hem" 2. informal good-natured teasing. "he took a good deal of ribbing with the utmost good humor" I refer to the 2nd definition
- ben_w 5y ago
  I already knew the definition, I was asking for examples. Were they sexual, anatomical, scatalogical, combative, suggesting one person was someone else’s toy, something else, or all of the above?
  - pmarreck 5y ago
    oh, sorry. let's see... anatomical (I got called "HEED" because my hat size was larger than anyone else's there (it's a reference to So I Married An Axe Murderer, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-OCjvbV2Z4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-OCjvbV2Z4))... sexual (your manliness was often called into question, usually humorously), combative (sometimes your reputation was called into question)... There are probably more categories of teasing I saw

elliekelly 5y ago

Women can and do participate in “ribbing” and understand things like jokes and context but sexual harassment is not the product of women misunderstanding or misinterpreting men ribbing them. The difference between ribbing and sexual harassment is pretty clear: the things that are said aren’t said in good fun. They’re said to intimidate, embarrass, and demean.

pmarreck 5y ago
> They’re said to intimidate, embarrass, and demean OK so, since this mentality absolutely and wantonly pervades "male culture", the real problem is male toxicity to other males which spills over towards women?