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I think that instead of framing it as fairness--which seems to agitate those who were born with monetary advantages, this conversation should be re-framed to fo

by zeku 5y ago

I think that instead of framing it as fairness--which seems to agitate those who were born with monetary advantages, this conversation should be re-framed to focus on societal efficiency. It is inefficient to shoehorn people to the top because their parents were at the top. The people at the top should be our highest achievers and not our decent achievers who were born with rich parents. The way our society is structured we will find ourselves much better off in a few generations if we can devise a system where each persons potential is given a proper environment to flourish and where each high potential person is given a carrot to chase that isn't unachievable. Edit: Speaking of carrots to chase. It's looking more and more like the wealth of millennials(and I suppose zoomers?) long term will be very very determined by their inheritance(if they are so lucky to have one lol) and less so by their hard work in life. This is likely the cause of the number of people under 40 who seem to be "opting out". It's very difficult to get to the supposed goal unless you are a high achiever. The carrot is very much too far away and this is another societal inefficiency. We would have a much more dedicated workforce if we made it possible to get "carrots".

majormajor 5y ago
Beyond that, if you just put it down to pure randomness you end up killing the incentive to try to advance your situation by playing by the rules. If the people at the top try to just promote defeatism to talk people out of challenging their place, they risk something quite different: if you believe putting more effort towards playing the game won't change your situation, you start looking at alternatives like crime or revolution. The random people who were born rich don't deserve it any more than you, so let's replace them with us. A system that isn't based on violence or the threat of violence can only work if people believe it actually does give them opportunity.
- zeku 5y ago
  I agree. Long term it is advantageous for everyone if our society is more fair, because if you keep pushing the lower class down a little further each generation eventually they will indeed have enough of it.
exporectomy 5y ago
You're just moving the privilege from born rich to born talented. It's still going to exclude all the people without that, so it's still going to be unfair. It's not necessarily better either. Kids of wealthy parents have a lot of work put into developing their capabilities. A lot of their success comes from that investment in their development. You would need to somehow do the same with these poor talented people too. How? Their parents aren't capable. Maybe forced adoption like Australia's "stolen generation"? I think that from an efficiency point of view, the way it is is best. It takes advantage of the natural desire people have to give their own children an advantage over others. That's a strong incentive. We'll miss some poor talented kids but I don't see any practical way to actually get such a pure meritocracy beyond human rights violations like some kind of Communist Olympic swimmers. I agree with you about carrots though. They seem to be getting further out of reach.
- TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
  For a long time, people also had a "natural desire" to eat their enemies. We stopped doing that because it was harmful. In fact now we think it's just gross. At some point some of these practices stop being "natural" and start to seem barbarous. In the case of inherited wealth, it's usually around the point where it becomes obvious that extreme inherited wealth/privilege + narcissism and/or sociopathy are incredibly toxic and damaging to democracy, economic stability, general well-being, and potentially even species survivability. Of course you can still get bad actors in a meritocracy. But you don't get highly privileged and powerful bad actors born into situations where they can avoid accountability. As for poor parents being "incapable" - that's a wholly circular argument. Who knows how capable they would be with more resources?
  - exporectomy 5y ago
    I'm talking about more common levels of income, not just the odd Bill Gates or King of Bazerbaijar. Advantaging your own reproductive success is a stronger feeling than eating enemies. You could even say it's the ultimate purpose of life for an organism or genome. It would be hard to suppress it, and destructive if people suppress it too much. Maybe culture could change so that it becomes normal but obviously we can't have everyone doing that or we'd be in a race to the bottom. I don't see how a culture that supports the biologically superior people at the expense of the inferior would be stable. Even if you have popular support for eugenics, surely people who realize they're at the bottom of the heap and being pushed further down will rebel against it. > As for poor parents being "incapable" - that's a wholly circular argument. Who knows how capable they would be with more resources? It's you being circular. Obviously, any incapable person would be capable if they had capability, by definition. I'm talking about people who are incapable with what they've got.

by zeku 5y ago

majormajor 5y ago

Beyond that, if you just put it down to pure randomness you end up killing the incentive to try to advance your situation by playing by the rules. If the people at the top try to just promote defeatism to talk people out of challenging their place, they risk something quite different: if you believe putting more effort towards playing the game won't change your situation, you start looking at alternatives like crime or revolution. The random people who were born rich don't deserve it any more than you, so let's replace them with us. A system that isn't based on violence or the threat of violence can only work if people believe it actually does give them opportunity.

zeku 5y ago
I agree. Long term it is advantageous for everyone if our society is more fair, because if you keep pushing the lower class down a little further each generation eventually they will indeed have enough of it.

exporectomy 5y ago

You're just moving the privilege from born rich to born talented. It's still going to exclude all the people without that, so it's still going to be unfair. It's not necessarily better either. Kids of wealthy parents have a lot of work put into developing their capabilities. A lot of their success comes from that investment in their development. You would need to somehow do the same with these poor talented people too. How? Their parents aren't capable. Maybe forced adoption like Australia's "stolen generation"? I think that from an efficiency point of view, the way it is is best. It takes advantage of the natural desire people have to give their own children an advantage over others. That's a strong incentive. We'll miss some poor talented kids but I don't see any practical way to actually get such a pure meritocracy beyond human rights violations like some kind of Communist Olympic swimmers. I agree with you about carrots though. They seem to be getting further out of reach.

TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
For a long time, people also had a "natural desire" to eat their enemies. We stopped doing that because it was harmful. In fact now we think it's just gross. At some point some of these practices stop being "natural" and start to seem barbarous. In the case of inherited wealth, it's usually around the point where it becomes obvious that extreme inherited wealth/privilege + narcissism and/or sociopathy are incredibly toxic and damaging to democracy, economic stability, general well-being, and potentially even species survivability. Of course you can still get bad actors in a meritocracy. But you don't get highly privileged and powerful bad actors born into situations where they can avoid accountability. As for poor parents being "incapable" - that's a wholly circular argument. Who knows how capable they would be with more resources?
- exporectomy 5y ago
  I'm talking about more common levels of income, not just the odd Bill Gates or King of Bazerbaijar. Advantaging your own reproductive success is a stronger feeling than eating enemies. You could even say it's the ultimate purpose of life for an organism or genome. It would be hard to suppress it, and destructive if people suppress it too much. Maybe culture could change so that it becomes normal but obviously we can't have everyone doing that or we'd be in a race to the bottom. I don't see how a culture that supports the biologically superior people at the expense of the inferior would be stable. Even if you have popular support for eugenics, surely people who realize they're at the bottom of the heap and being pushed further down will rebel against it. > As for poor parents being "incapable" - that's a wholly circular argument. Who knows how capable they would be with more resources? It's you being circular. Obviously, any incapable person would be capable if they had capability, by definition. I'm talking about people who are incapable with what they've got.