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Very fun article. I do think there is another way that is very much The Long Game but may offer the highest payoff / security in the long run: * become very go
by wly_cdgr 5y ago
Very fun article. I do think there is another way that is very much The Long Game but may offer the highest payoff / security in the long run:
* become very good at a highly gamedev-relevant and marketable skill (e.g. graphics programming)
* parlay skill into well-paying job that uses and further hones that skill
* as you work the job and save/invest aggressively, start building games on the side using the skills you've developed
* after 5-15 years, if you still want to make indie games, you'll have enough money to do it full time without needing outside funding, plus a vast amount of relevant skill and experience to help you succeed
Con: takes forever, to the point where you might die before you get to finish a game
Pros: you are not truly fucked if you fail at indie gamedev / realize you don't want to do it anymore; if you manage to carry out the full plan, you can make exactly what you want, since you won't need your games to make money
This is the route I'm taking - I'll update with my progress in 5 years or so
- austincheney 5y ago> as you work the job and save/invest aggressively, start building games on the side using the skills you've developed Oh the dreams of young single childless people.
- njharman 5y agoAs a 50 yr old childless bachelor I can attest that relationships and offspring are the biggest time, energy and financial sinks. Not saying it anit worth it, just that you will expend %50-150 of your resources depending on how responsible a partner and parent you are.
- Danieru 5y ago> Oh the dreams of young single childless people. Two kids + wife + mortgage and I managed it. Even better I can report: you do not need full FIRE and 15+ years of career. All the indies I know who "failed" returned to the industry with yet better jobs than prior. Ours is an industry where experience itself becomes security. Game's tooling changes slowly. While hordes are fighting for the few entry level positions every team actual wants is experienced people. Thus once you get into the games industry and stay, the jobs get better.
- juanuys 5y ago> This is the route I'm taking - I'll update with my progress in 5 years or so Nice one, mate. Good luck. I'm doing the same, so right behind you :)
- wly_cdgr 5y agoGood luck to you as well! :)
- WJW 5y agoYou probably already know this, but on the off chance somebody has not seen this before: the FIRE community has a lot of additional advice, know-how and general support to help refine and execute this style of life-plan.
- wly_cdgr 5y agoThank you!!
- TheHideout 5y agoGood luck, I'm working this same plan here! I also do contract game dev on the side which helps me work out engine ideas / tooling [0]. [0] https://doctorarcana.com/ https://doctorarcana.com/
- wly_cdgr 5y agoMultiple positive reviews from Steam players with 5+hr playtime is already a big achievement, congrats & good luck
- TheHideout 5y agothanks!
- ryandrake 5y ago> as you work the job and save/invest aggressively, start building games on the side using the skills you've developed As always when this topic comes up on HN, check your employer's IP assignment policy in your employment agreement before you moonlight or work on side projects that you think you might own or make money from in the future. Some are limited to what you make on company equipment / company time, others claim everything you make at home or at work, using any equipment.
- wly_cdgr 5y agoThanks for the always useful reminder. The plan is indeed to work outside the game industry itself, with an eye in part to reducing the chance of this being an issue. Also so my hourly rate can be a solid double what it would be in AAA, ha I will also add that I am always delighted to violate contract terms that impinge on my personal creative and commercial agency to the extent I can get away with. I am not about to let myself feel bound by something I had to sign in order to eat, except insofar as is prudent and serves my interests That said, I do also think these noncompete/IP clauses can be reasonable sometimes. I wouldn't work on a commercial indie match 2 game while employed by a AAA match 3 developer
- sdoering 5y agoI wanted to write something to the effect of me being happy that stuff like this would not fly in Germany because... ... damn was I wrong. And even if I already read contracts very, very carefully I will in addition have something new to look for, as even so called "Freizeitwerke" (works during free time) could be claimed exclusively by an employer.
- stopnamingnuts 5y agoI've been guilty once or twice of forming a strong (usually self-righteous) opinion only to have it collapse before I get a chance to enjoy smugly lecturing the Internet. This is interesting. Thanks for posting anyway.
- Rebelgecko 5y agoOne interesting different is that in most of the US you're usually in the clear if whatever you work on isn't related to your employer's business (although that can be a bit nebulous). However my understanding is that in Germany, even if your side project isn't related to your employer's business you're still required to give them first dibs at licensing any IP you create.
- BrS96bVxXBLzf5B 5y agoThe author of the article, Jeff Vogel, is a few steps (25 years) ahead of you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs (like the article, a humour-laced talk, enjoyable)
- wly_cdgr 5y agoLooks fantastic, thank you for sharing! Here's a random favorite of mine, as a thank you: https://youtu.be/_4iswqa8r-Q https://youtu.be/_4iswqa8r-Q Not a business talk, but a design deep dive from a genre master. Existential breakdown starts ~20:30
- gbba 5y agoI had a similar plan when I started my career, where the idea was to save and self-support independent endeavors. 13 years later: I can execute the "full plan" at any time, but I find myself to have sufficient autonomy and be comfortable enough at my current position. This plan is certainly not the highest payoff in my case, as I can't buy the toys/houses my peers have. However work/life balance is great, and I still have the option to build things without needing outside funding.
- wly_cdgr 5y agoGreat to hear that it can work, and has worked for you. Congrats & thank you for the inspo Houses and toys are plentiful and of low value. The payoffs I have in mind are the great luxury of being able to afford creative freedom and integrity, and the pleasures of mastery. Sounds like you are rich in all that - the wise person's wealth
- SamBam 5y agoThis sounds a little like the Key and Peele sketch where they plan a bank heist. The plan is to work for the bank for many years, and every month the bank will deposit some of its money directly into their own accounts.
- weinzierl 5y ago> "I can execute the "full plan" at any time, but I find myself to have sufficient autonomy and be comfortable enough at my current position." I don't know if you realize it, but there is probably a strong connection between the "I can execute the 'full plan' at any time" part of your life and the "autonomy and [..] comfortable [..] position" part. In other words: In our times there is no downside in preparing your independence and working on your autonomy except that it is a lot of work. There is no real alternative either, even and especially if you plan to be dependently employed until retirement. Once you are in a dependent position and you don't have the option to leave short term, sadly the risk of being taken advantage of is real.
- cushychicken 5y agoThis is a great route for just about any kind of tech adjacent creative profession. Source: me, who is taking part in The Quittening to test out whether it's viable or not.
- gabereiser 5y agolol, this exactly describes my career and entry into indie games about a decade ago. It sounds reasonable but don't do it. You'll find by the time you can create that game you've been wanting to make, graphics pipelines and technology will pass you by making your idea irrelevant. So you end up making a quick game to make a quick buck and go back into the workforce a little bit richer. [1] If you want to make games, or software, or any product, you have to hit while the iron is hot otherwise someone else will come along and beat you to it. Even if you invest aggressively, it's better to just keep doing that and retire than waste it on that pet project you had your eye on for 20 years. [1]: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/xbox360/958447-alchemist/videos/1116376 https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/xbox360/958447-alchemist/video...
- gabereiser 5y agoand yes, I realize the game I referenced was basic, had UX issues, and was more or less a cash grab on xbox360. I made it using my game engine that I spent 2 years writing, but the game showcased only took me 15 days to write. After release, I just went back to work.
- TaylorAlexander 5y agoNot a bad plan but I’ll share my approach since it contrasts with yours. I worked in big tech for a few years. Hated it. My work is very important to me and I do not like working on projects where I have no creative control or autonomy. So I started working fewer hours. I was an hourly contractor and got down to 30 hours a week with nothing more than grumbles for my manager. I’m a generalist in my field (robotics) and “full stack”. I wrote a manifesto [1] and handed out 250 copies at maker faire etc. I wrote about my dream. Someone shared my dream and could pay me for it. To lower cash flow requirements I only work about 20 billable hours a week. I can survive just fine on that. My billable work is part of my dream and the rest of the week I work on hobby stuff which is all also in furtherance of my dream. 100% of what I am working on is open source. My story is certainly unique. I don’t expect you to meet someone who will help fund your dream. But I basically got very good at my craft and then found a part time work arrangement that allows me to spend a lot of time working towards other personal goals I have. And I don’t have to stay stuck in a damn corporate office. So yeah, instead of negotiating ever higher wages, consider negotiating ever more flexible schedules. [1] http://tlalexander.com/static/zine.pdf http://tlalexander.com/static/zine.pdf
- wly_cdgr 5y agoThe idea of asking for fewer hours rather than more money makes a great deal of sense to me and is something I've considered. I will probably mix that into my plan once I have the experience, competence, and reputation to be able to negotiate such an arrangement. It would be ideal for multiple reasons, actually, to continue to work something like 10-20 hrs/week. One option that might work for me is teaching/tutoring, as I like it and have experience with it Thank you for sharing your experience and for the advice!
- TaylorAlexander 5y agoThe cool thing is that (if you enjoy doing it, like I do) you can use the extra time to learn new and interesting skills which perhaps complement your existing skillset. I mean, you may be better served by spending time with family, or with painting or cooking or all manner of things that aren't related to work. But I really enjoy programming and 3D printing and electronics design, and with this schedule I have enough time to work on endless pointless projects which have the side effect of teaching new skills or reinforcing existing ones. This makes me more valuable than if I had stayed working 40hrs a week writing hardware test code day in and day out.
- d13 5y agoMy route: 5 years indie games making under minimum wage income. Another 7 years writing books about how I did that, earning even less. Year 13, stumbled into an incredibly well paying position as CTO of an innovative game dev startup and have never looked back.