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When you get right down to it the obsessive range anxiety doesn’t make a lot of sense. How often are you going on road trips? Actually I’d guess it’s so infrequ

When you get right down to it the obsessive range anxiety doesn’t make a lot of sense. How often are you going on road trips? Actually I’d guess it’s so infrequent that renting would be fine. This sounds crotchety, but it’s a bit of a recurring pattern that I see that presents problems for adopting more efficient standards: everybody needs a pickup because they haul or tow once or twice a year, or long range in case they suddenly decide they want to drive cross-country, even though they never do that, etc.

georgyo 5y ago
Charging an EV takes significantly more time than filling up a gas tank. There are also far more gas stations then electric charging stations. This means a simple trip like going upstate for the weekend would be hindered by needing to know where and when to charge the car. If the entire trip could be done on a single charge, that is a lot of freedom.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  Somebody who didn’t need the car for regular errands and commuting probably wouldn’t buy it just for the occasional trip, though, wouldn’t you agree?
  - dahfizz 5y ago
    I don't understand the strawman you are trying to construct. Obviously pickup trucks and long range EVs are not for you if you don't need them. That's a non statement. Of course, there are lots of people who do need those things. There are lots of people in the world living in lots of environments that look different than yours.
    - emodendroket 5y ago
      I don’t really think it’s a straw man. If you look into it the vast majority of pickups are used to tow or haul once per year or less. People aren’t actually buying them for practical reasons.
      - dahfizz 5y ago
        Do you have a source? Have you spent time in the Midwestern, Sourthern, or Northeastern parts of the USA? Or is it that you live in the Bay Area, and the few people that own trucks in the Bay Area don't use them much?
        emodendroket 5y ago
        I have spent less than a week of my life the Bay Area, so you can stop repeating that line. Here is a source: https://www.thedrive.com/news/26907/you-dont-need-a-full-size-pickup-truck-you-need-a-cowboy-costume https://www.thedrive.com/news/26907/you-dont-need-a-full-siz... > And they might also protest that trucks provide capabilities that other vehicles lack. But, as it turns out, a significant portion of truck owners never use their trucks for these capabilities. According to Edwards’ data, 75 percent of truck owners use their truck for towing one time a year or less (meaning, never). Nearly 70 percent of truck owners go off-road one time a year or less. And a full 35 percent of truck owners use their truck for hauling—putting something in the bed, its ostensible raison d’être—once a year or less.
        dahfizz 5y ago
        > And a full 35 percent of truck owners use their truck for hauling—putting something in the bed, its ostensible raison d’être—once a year or less. contradicts >> the vast majority of pickups are used to tow or haul once per year or less. According to your article, 65% of trucks are used for hauling multiple times every year.
        emodendroket 5y ago
        well, you are right, I got that number wrong. I would guess that few of these couldn't also be achieved by, say, minivan with the seats down, given how few trucks have full-size beds (another hint they're not for work).
        zdragnar 5y ago
- mattlondon 5y ago
  There are increasingly more and more chargers everywhere now. Especially 100kw+ rapid chargers are getting more and more common. A lot of the petrol stations here in London now also have multiple 100kw+ chargers. Even when looking at non-exotica every-day vehicles like current-gen nissan leaf you get ~200 miles of range, and can recharge 240mph (more than 4 miles per minute) [1] More recent cars getting launched now (and again, not necessarily exotic brands, but even Hyundai and VW) have even faster charging rates. So even a 15 minute break for the toilet and getting a takeout coffee will give you 60 miles of range. Stop for 45mins for lunch? Add 180 miles of charge, or 3 more hours of driving at 60 when you might want to stop again for a toilet break or to stretch your legs. If you truly need to drive for 7 or 8 hours (400-500 miles at 60) without any kind of significant breaks on a regular basis, then I'd argue that you are probably taking quite a risk to your safety (and those around you - both inside and outside your car) due to tiredness. 1 - https://ev-database.uk/car/1144/Nissan-Leaf-eplus https://ev-database.uk/car/1144/Nissan-Leaf-eplus
  - packetlost 5y ago
    That's great, but the USA is an entirely different story. > If you truly need to drive for 7 or 8 hours (400-500 miles at 60) without any kind of significant breaks on a regular basis, then I'd argue that you are probably taking quite a risk to your safety (and those around you - both inside and outside your car) due to tiredness. I've done 350~ mile trips pretty often (about 5 1/2-6 hours) and I usually only stop for 10-15 min to go to the bathroom and fuel up. Driving for a few more hours isn't really that bad, and very common in countries with 10x the square mileage of yours.
    - emodendroket 5y ago
      I have lived here for my whole life and I wouldn’t agree that it’s “very common” to do.
      - dlivingston 5y ago
        It probably depends where in the country you are. Here in New Mexico, I make > 4 hour drives at least twice a month, and most people I know have similar driving habits.
- dreamcompiler 5y ago
  > Charging an EV takes significantly more time than filling up a gas tank. Not if you use HVDC superchargers. I've taken several cross-country trips in a Tesla and it's not an issue. It takes 20 minutes to recharge and I do so about every 150 miles. Time enough to get out, stretch, pee, buy a snack, get back in your air-conditioned car (climate controls are fully functional while charging), check your email, and then it's time to go.
  - turtlebits 5y ago
    Not all EVs charge at the same rate Tesla = 250kW Bolt/Bolt EUV = 50kw Kona EV = 75kw (almost an hour to 80%) Leaf = 100kw
    - dreamcompiler 5y ago
      That's true today. But within 2 years, almost all mainstream EVs will charge quickly. I base this on the experience Tesla, Ford and VW customers are rapidly gaining with HVDC charging and the speed at which Electrify America is getting built out. In two years the only market for EVs that don't have a fast-charge option will be ultra low-cost urban commuter cars. And even then I'm doubtful; cars that can only charge with HVDC might even be cheaper since they don't need an onboard AC/DC converter. Couple that with economies of scale and the car companies might just decide slow-charging cars don't make sense to build.
  - listenallyall 5y ago
    > several cross-country trips Which country?
    - dreamcompiler 5y ago
      USA.
riffraff 5y ago
> Actually I’d guess it’s so infrequent that renting would be fine. When I go on a road trip it's for more than a week, renting would basically double the cost of my trip.
bowmessage 5y ago
I wouldn’t project your driving habits on everyone else. Lots of folks go skiing every weekend in the winter, for example.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  Well at the rate we’re going there’s not going to be much skiing left for them to do.
  - beerandt 5y ago
    But we'll have that many more beach weekends. So it'll even out.
- formerly_proven 5y ago
  That sounds totally sustainable for the future /s
Karsteski 5y ago
I go camping and hiking quite often. I also live in Canada, so everything is quite far away. As much as I want an EV as my next car, they are going to need at least comparable average ICE range as well at least reasonable charging network support for it to be a reasonable purchase, at least for someone like me.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  The point here is not that we can’t find someone whose unusual usage pattern absolutely necessitates the range, or that we can’t think of occasional situations where it would be useful for the average person. What I want to challenge is the assumption that everyone needs a capability that most will infrequently avail themselves of.
  - dahfizz 5y ago
    > What I want to challenge is the assumption that everyone needs a capability that most will infrequently avail themselves of. You are the only person asserting that. Nobody is saying that everyone should buy a long range EV. But there is a market of people who actually do need it, which is why they are being developed.
    - emodendroket 5y ago
      Range anxiety is one of the top reasons people don’t want to buy electric cars! Are you kidding?
  - 14 5y ago
    I believe range is important for a lot of people because if they live somewhere like an apartment where they can’t charge easily or at all then they are going to have to go to a station somewhere. Very inconvenient if you have to do that everyday instead of once a week.
    - emodendroket 5y ago
      That’s a fair point — it would help drive adoption to get more apartment complexes to get charging stations set up, I imagine.
mrfusion 5y ago
Unfortunately renting a car is kind of an awful experience. These days they’re even sold out sometimes. Prices fluctuate 3x or more, you often have to wait in long lines, stress about turning down insurance, not sure about vehicle quality.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  That hasn’t been my experience at all. I’ve found it both affordable and pretty hassle-free. I most recently rented a car a few weeks ago in Los Angeles.
sandworm101 5y ago
>> How often are you going on road trips? 1600km (one way) a few times every year to visit parents. Flying actually takes longer (flights+ferries don't line up and the cost is far higher). Nearest costco is 465km. So a monthly 1000km shopping trip is normal. Not everyone lives in the bay area with every store imaginable within a few miles. Many people live in places like Alberta or Iowa, the places your food comes from.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  If the Census Bureau is to be believed, 80% of Americans live in an urban area (presumably that is talking about metro areas). https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/geography/guidance/geo-areas/urban-rural/ua-facts.html https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/geography/guidance/g...
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    And I would be one of them. I might live in an big apartment building in a city of over 10,000 but we do not have an airport. We do not have a costco. We have car dealers, but not the honda dealer I need for my recalled airbag (nearest is 400km away). And my particular urban area is not where my parents live. Urban or not, I still have to drive considerable distances for nearly everything.
    - emodendroket 5y ago
      Driving your own car to an airport is usually not a great idea even if you have one that can make the trip easily.
      - dreamcompiler 5y ago
        There's not much of an alternative if you live 100 miles from the airport. Even if you could find an Uber the cost would exceed the parking fee.
  - dahfizz 5y ago
maverick-iceman 5y ago
You are already paying the EV much more than an ICE (meaning you are basically buying all the "fuel" upfront) You have longer times of recharge (20-240 minutes) vs a 35 seconds gasoline splash and go Unless the US goes full Norway and decides to ban Gas cars in city centres , then you'd be getting an inferior product at a higher price point That's the hard truth
- emodendroket 5y ago
  If gas were to become expensive enough I bet people would think harder about it.
elcapitan 5y ago
Long range driving is actually pretty typical for business people in Germany, which is an important customer group because of company cars.
stirlo 5y ago
I walk to work (when not working from home) and only use my car for long trips to regional areas (visiting family and outdoor activities). I’d love to buy an EV but unfortunately current range limitations make them the perfect commuter car but an inferior weekend/holiday driver. I am excited by any company that wants to invest in increased range.
packetlost 5y ago
I live in the midwest. There's 300-600 miles between major cities, which I visit multiple times per year. Couple that with the winter months where EV batteries lose some significant percentage of range there's little chance I, or many people, could own an EV as an only vehicle anytime soon.
m_myers 5y ago
I'm just tired of "commuter" EVs that don't have enough range for my 30-minute commute (17 miles each way). I'd need at least a 60 mile range to be able to get to the farthest reaches of the nearest city and back. That seems to put me in Tesla territory, and the price doesn't make sense for the purpose.
- avianlyric 5y ago
  Don't know where you're getting those figures from. A cheap little Renault Zoe will do ~200 miles. The VW ID.4 has similar range. A Nissan Leaf will do ~150 real world miles. I can't think of any modern EV that does less that ~150 real world miles on single charge. Except for those go-karts like the Renault Twizy, but that isn't a car.
fy20 5y ago
I think in general you are correct, however infrastructure is still hit and miss right now, so you really need to plan ahead (including contingencies). I rented an EV through a car sharing app the other week, and the first place I went to charge only had slow chargers. I stayed as I needed to grab lunch, but it added only maybe 10km of range. Later on the trip I stopped somewhere else I knew had fast and slow chargers but all the fast chargers were out of service. I only needed another 20km of range, so I just waited a hour while making a few phone calls, no big deal, but if I'd planned to fully recharge the car it would have been painful. For commuting it's a different story as you can find out where all the chargers are on your route, and you'll learn which are most reliable and least busy. I have seen a few Teslas in my country with plates from the other side of Europe, so I guess it can work...
- emodendroket 5y ago
  Yeah, totally agreed there. It's only just starting to get to the point where it is practical.
nicbou 5y ago
That's pretty much the only reason I drive. I average 15,000km a year on my motorcycle alone. I drive maybe 500km a year in the city. My case is atypical, but the case of people driving home to see their family is not. Driving 600km in a day would be difficult if it requires a mid-day charge and a parking space near a charger at night. Yet that's the distance I cover to visit my grandparents. In winter.
- cptskippy 5y ago
  > Driving 600km in a day would be difficult if it requires a mid-day charge and a parking space near a charger at night. I regularly did a (570mi)918km trip (Atlanta to Jelico and back) in one day in my Tesla Model 3. It took 2-3 stops totally about an hour charge time.
  - nicbou 5y ago
    That's fine if the infrastructure is there, and your range isn't diminishes by temperature. It's honestly acceptable for many people. It doesn't really suit my needs (I venture further out), but I concede that plenty of people would be just fine with this.
    - cptskippy 5y ago
      > It's honestly acceptable for many people. The reality is that it's acceptable for the majority of people. Many families could replace both vehicles with an EV, most families could replace one vehicle with an EV. The sentiment that's perpetuated that "it wouldn't work for me" needs to die. Yes there are people and scenarios where it wouldn't work, and unfortunately those boundary conditions are being touted vocally and negatively shaping public sentiment. If public sentiment were to shift strongly in favor of EV transition, it would still take decades and companies would actively start looking for solutions to the boundary conditions but as long as a vocal minority is online saying "this will never work for me" then there's always going to be push back slowing or stifling adoption. Everyone who feels the urge to standup and say "no, this won't work for me" either needs to engage in find a solution that will or just sit down and shut up.
mint2 5y ago
Rental companies generally seem to frown on taking their cars off paved roads. Of the 12k on my car, 9-10k of that was road trips around California. It’s easy to rack up miles if you’re into outdoor recreation. 500-600 mile range would be great, 400 mile range a minimum. 300 mile range is not practical at all. I’m assuming we’re talking advertised ranges, if it got 350 under taxing driving conditions and ac use or freezing weather that would be acceptable.
mrgordon 5y ago
You’re totally right. And then the entire city is built for giant SUVs when it should be built for people to walk
turtlebits 5y ago
When fast charging takes over an hour (Chevy bolt fast charges at 50kw, less in actual use), you do really have to plan trips. A majority of EV owners don't have L2 charging at home, and a short 30 mile weekend trip (60 both ways) is more than a L1 charger can replenish overnight. Way more if you use AC or drive when in cold weather. I can easily drive more than I can daily charge with errands or driving the kids to class/camp.
- formerly_proven 5y ago
  If you use 230 V instead of 110 V, and three-phase instead of split-phase, the lowest charging tier becomes 3 kW (instead of 110 V @ 15 A = something like 1.5 kW), and pretty much anyone who has a car hole can easily install a 11 or 22 kW charger. This might make a pretty big difference in the end for all the house-owning people. The American decision to use intentionally limited, low-tier electricity grids as a cudgel to enforce zoning shows yet another facet of externalities.
  - turtlebits 5y ago
    It's easy if you have the $$$. Personally, I don't want to spend a few thousand to buy a charger and have an electrician run a 240v plug to my detached garage. On my old house, there wasn't enough capacity to add another 240v breaker.
fooker 5y ago
>How often are you going on road trips? Once per weekend, on average. So far, this makes EVs a non starter for me.
ffggvv 5y ago
not everyone owns a house with charging. my apartment doesn’t have chargers. i care about range because i don’t want to waste a few hours charging my car somewhere. my gas car i just spend 10 mins filling up gas every few weeks
runako 5y ago
> How often are you going on road trips? It's not the frequency, it's the notion that one will have purchased a "bad" vehicle. Here, "bad" means that you need to rent another car[1] in order to go on a road trip. People buy cars for convenience, and renting a car to use instead of the car you own is not convenient. It's not odd to expect a new car to be as functional as one's current car over the course of a single year. 1 - The last time I rented a vehicle for a road trip (we had an extra guest, so wouldn't fit in my car), the total cost was ~$1,000. If we needed to rent a car twice in a year due to owning a range-limited EV, that would effectively add ~$167/mo to the cost of ownership of the EV.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  Yes, of course, that's what is in their heads. But it is a strange notion of "convenience" to be locked into certain patterns of living and purchase just to make sure we can easily do something we do very occasionally. I'm not sure where you rented, but from what I've seen a typical car rental is $40/day. It'd have to be long road trips before that really added up.
  - listenallyall 5y ago
    $40 is almost surely a pre-pandemic number, as rental cars have mostly doubled or more since. Go see what a car costs in Southern California, or Albuquerque, for example. Further, that price is without any insurance, and likely a small car, while plenty of people going on a road trip need a much larger car to fit the whole family + luggage + extras like camping equipment, the dog, etc.
    - emodendroket 5y ago
      Not so. I actually rented a car in LA a few weeks ago, which is why I had the figure in mind. See for yourself: https://i.imgur.com/aWL365O.png https://i.imgur.com/aWL365O.png Vans appear to be slightly more expensive but not outrageously so (and honestly it's not at all uncommon to get a free upgrade when you book the economy car). As for insurance, why would our hypothetical family need to get insurance? Surely they already have it, if they have a car that they drive.
rdtwo 5y ago
In theory you are right but renting infrastructure sucks across the board. There are so many things that would make more sense to rent vs own but the cost and inconvenience of renting makes it difficult to do. Right now a week rental car in some areas will run you 700$. Plus it’s super inconvenient plus you might not be able to get a vehicle you want. Did you know you aren’t allowed to tow with a rental car for example? Another example I checked my local REI and the only thing still left to rent out for this weekend is hiking poles. And that’s considering REI charges like 20% of retail per rental
BluePen8 5y ago
What about frequency of charging? I once commuted on a motorcycle with the range of my daily commute (about 120 miles). Despite how ubiquitous gas stations are, and how fast I could swipe by VISA and pump 2 gallons, it was still incredibly annoying. Those daily 4 minute pit stops were infuriating, I can't imaging having to spend half an hour at a EV charging station twice a week.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  I would imagine you would want to have a charger at home and/or at the office.
nybble41 5y ago
> How often are you going on road trips? Over the last 18 months or so, between remote work and lockdown, journeys of 350+ miles with minimal stops (< 30 minutes total) probably make up about ¾ of the trips and 90%+ of the miles on my vehicle. A typical pre-COVID year would see about half a dozen trips like that (one way) mixed with commuting and trips around town—with the longer trips still making up a majority of the total miles driven. As I see it, at least in my situation, the ability to handle a 350+ mile trip smoothly and efficiently with at most one stop of 30 minutes or less is a basic requirement for any vehicle I would be willing to consider. Anything short of that would be a significant downgrade in practical terms from my current vehicle—an inexpensive, decade-old non-hybrid Honda Fit Sport which still manages 35 MPG on the highway. Ecologically speaking, if I'm not using the EV for these longer trips then the environmental benefit of switching would be practically nil. Most of the miles driven would still be in a gas-burning vehicle. The same goes for a PHEV. We need to acknowledge that the shorter range and longer "refueling" times of EVs are significant practical issues standing in the way of EV adoption, and not ignore or downplay them. Fortunately we're finally starting to see some pure EVs with the necessary range, and also making some progress on building out suitable charging infrastructure. Now if we could just address the proliferation of brand-specific and member-only charging networks…
throwawaysea 5y ago
No, renting would not be fine. People take vacations and long day trips, often at the same time as everyone else. The rental supply simply can't satisfy that amount of demand. It doesn't matter if hauling cargo or driving long distances is infrequent or even a small percentage of miles driven - it is a core use case for vehicles. Otherwise, people would simply not be able to do the things they do on holidays.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  I would like to see a citation that very many of these are by car... and satisfying vacation demand is, anyway, a pretty substantial part of what the entire car rental industry already exists for. All those people at the airport didn't take their cars with them.
  - throwawaysea 5y ago
    Yes there is enough rental capacity for air travelers. But there are substantially more vacationers traveling by car. There isn’t enough rental capacity for them and it wouldn’t make economic sense to keep rental capacity around for the surge of demand around holidays. Current rental capacity works because it is matched up to flight capacity, which is stable and predictable.
    - emodendroket 5y ago
      I have my doubts that this is true among several axes: 1) do more people really travel by car? 2) how could air travel not be highly seasonal when school breaks generally line up? Hotels are certainly priced like it's seasonal. Don't they already have that problem? 3) If the scenario we were talking about became more commonplace, wouldn't we expect capacity to increase to meet demand?

georgyo 5y ago

Charging an EV takes significantly more time than filling up a gas tank. There are also far more gas stations then electric charging stations. This means a simple trip like going upstate for the weekend would be hindered by needing to know where and when to charge the car. If the entire trip could be done on a single charge, that is a lot of freedom.

emodendroket 5y ago
Somebody who didn’t need the car for regular errands and commuting probably wouldn’t buy it just for the occasional trip, though, wouldn’t you agree?
- dahfizz 5y ago
  I don't understand the strawman you are trying to construct. Obviously pickup trucks and long range EVs are not for you if you don't need them. That's a non statement. Of course, there are lots of people who do need those things. There are lots of people in the world living in lots of environments that look different than yours.
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    I don’t really think it’s a straw man. If you look into it the vast majority of pickups are used to tow or haul once per year or less. People aren’t actually buying them for practical reasons.
    - dahfizz 5y ago
      Do you have a source? Have you spent time in the Midwestern, Sourthern, or Northeastern parts of the USA? Or is it that you live in the Bay Area, and the few people that own trucks in the Bay Area don't use them much?
      - emodendroket 5y ago
        I have spent less than a week of my life the Bay Area, so you can stop repeating that line. Here is a source: https://www.thedrive.com/news/26907/you-dont-need-a-full-size-pickup-truck-you-need-a-cowboy-costume https://www.thedrive.com/news/26907/you-dont-need-a-full-siz... > And they might also protest that trucks provide capabilities that other vehicles lack. But, as it turns out, a significant portion of truck owners never use their trucks for these capabilities. According to Edwards’ data, 75 percent of truck owners use their truck for towing one time a year or less (meaning, never). Nearly 70 percent of truck owners go off-road one time a year or less. And a full 35 percent of truck owners use their truck for hauling—putting something in the bed, its ostensible raison d’être—once a year or less.
        dahfizz 5y ago
        > And a full 35 percent of truck owners use their truck for hauling—putting something in the bed, its ostensible raison d’être—once a year or less. contradicts >> the vast majority of pickups are used to tow or haul once per year or less. According to your article, 65% of trucks are used for hauling multiple times every year.
        emodendroket 5y ago
        well, you are right, I got that number wrong. I would guess that few of these couldn't also be achieved by, say, minivan with the seats down, given how few trucks have full-size beds (another hint they're not for work).
        zdragnar 5y ago
mattlondon 5y ago
There are increasingly more and more chargers everywhere now. Especially 100kw+ rapid chargers are getting more and more common. A lot of the petrol stations here in London now also have multiple 100kw+ chargers. Even when looking at non-exotica every-day vehicles like current-gen nissan leaf you get ~200 miles of range, and can recharge 240mph (more than 4 miles per minute) [1] More recent cars getting launched now (and again, not necessarily exotic brands, but even Hyundai and VW) have even faster charging rates. So even a 15 minute break for the toilet and getting a takeout coffee will give you 60 miles of range. Stop for 45mins for lunch? Add 180 miles of charge, or 3 more hours of driving at 60 when you might want to stop again for a toilet break or to stretch your legs. If you truly need to drive for 7 or 8 hours (400-500 miles at 60) without any kind of significant breaks on a regular basis, then I'd argue that you are probably taking quite a risk to your safety (and those around you - both inside and outside your car) due to tiredness. 1 - https://ev-database.uk/car/1144/Nissan-Leaf-eplus https://ev-database.uk/car/1144/Nissan-Leaf-eplus
- packetlost 5y ago
  That's great, but the USA is an entirely different story. > If you truly need to drive for 7 or 8 hours (400-500 miles at 60) without any kind of significant breaks on a regular basis, then I'd argue that you are probably taking quite a risk to your safety (and those around you - both inside and outside your car) due to tiredness. I've done 350~ mile trips pretty often (about 5 1/2-6 hours) and I usually only stop for 10-15 min to go to the bathroom and fuel up. Driving for a few more hours isn't really that bad, and very common in countries with 10x the square mileage of yours.
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    I have lived here for my whole life and I wouldn’t agree that it’s “very common” to do.
    - dlivingston 5y ago
      It probably depends where in the country you are. Here in New Mexico, I make > 4 hour drives at least twice a month, and most people I know have similar driving habits.
dreamcompiler 5y ago
> Charging an EV takes significantly more time than filling up a gas tank. Not if you use HVDC superchargers. I've taken several cross-country trips in a Tesla and it's not an issue. It takes 20 minutes to recharge and I do so about every 150 miles. Time enough to get out, stretch, pee, buy a snack, get back in your air-conditioned car (climate controls are fully functional while charging), check your email, and then it's time to go.
- turtlebits 5y ago
  Not all EVs charge at the same rate Tesla = 250kW Bolt/Bolt EUV = 50kw Kona EV = 75kw (almost an hour to 80%) Leaf = 100kw
  - dreamcompiler 5y ago
    That's true today. But within 2 years, almost all mainstream EVs will charge quickly. I base this on the experience Tesla, Ford and VW customers are rapidly gaining with HVDC charging and the speed at which Electrify America is getting built out. In two years the only market for EVs that don't have a fast-charge option will be ultra low-cost urban commuter cars. And even then I'm doubtful; cars that can only charge with HVDC might even be cheaper since they don't need an onboard AC/DC converter. Couple that with economies of scale and the car companies might just decide slow-charging cars don't make sense to build.
- listenallyall 5y ago
  > several cross-country trips Which country?
  - dreamcompiler 5y ago
    USA.

riffraff 5y ago

> Actually I’d guess it’s so infrequent that renting would be fine. When I go on a road trip it's for more than a week, renting would basically double the cost of my trip.

bowmessage 5y ago

I wouldn’t project your driving habits on everyone else. Lots of folks go skiing every weekend in the winter, for example.

emodendroket 5y ago
Well at the rate we’re going there’s not going to be much skiing left for them to do.
- beerandt 5y ago
  But we'll have that many more beach weekends. So it'll even out.
formerly_proven 5y ago
That sounds totally sustainable for the future /s

Karsteski 5y ago

I go camping and hiking quite often. I also live in Canada, so everything is quite far away. As much as I want an EV as my next car, they are going to need at least comparable average ICE range as well at least reasonable charging network support for it to be a reasonable purchase, at least for someone like me.

emodendroket 5y ago
The point here is not that we can’t find someone whose unusual usage pattern absolutely necessitates the range, or that we can’t think of occasional situations where it would be useful for the average person. What I want to challenge is the assumption that everyone needs a capability that most will infrequently avail themselves of.
- dahfizz 5y ago
  > What I want to challenge is the assumption that everyone needs a capability that most will infrequently avail themselves of. You are the only person asserting that. Nobody is saying that everyone should buy a long range EV. But there is a market of people who actually do need it, which is why they are being developed.
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    Range anxiety is one of the top reasons people don’t want to buy electric cars! Are you kidding?
- 14 5y ago
  I believe range is important for a lot of people because if they live somewhere like an apartment where they can’t charge easily or at all then they are going to have to go to a station somewhere. Very inconvenient if you have to do that everyday instead of once a week.
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    That’s a fair point — it would help drive adoption to get more apartment complexes to get charging stations set up, I imagine.

mrfusion 5y ago

Unfortunately renting a car is kind of an awful experience. These days they’re even sold out sometimes. Prices fluctuate 3x or more, you often have to wait in long lines, stress about turning down insurance, not sure about vehicle quality.

emodendroket 5y ago
That hasn’t been my experience at all. I’ve found it both affordable and pretty hassle-free. I most recently rented a car a few weeks ago in Los Angeles.

sandworm101 5y ago

>> How often are you going on road trips? 1600km (one way) a few times every year to visit parents. Flying actually takes longer (flights+ferries don't line up and the cost is far higher). Nearest costco is 465km. So a monthly 1000km shopping trip is normal. Not everyone lives in the bay area with every store imaginable within a few miles. Many people live in places like Alberta or Iowa, the places your food comes from.

emodendroket 5y ago
If the Census Bureau is to be believed, 80% of Americans live in an urban area (presumably that is talking about metro areas). https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/geography/guidance/geo-areas/urban-rural/ua-facts.html https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/geography/guidance/g...
- sandworm101 5y ago
  And I would be one of them. I might live in an big apartment building in a city of over 10,000 but we do not have an airport. We do not have a costco. We have car dealers, but not the honda dealer I need for my recalled airbag (nearest is 400km away). And my particular urban area is not where my parents live. Urban or not, I still have to drive considerable distances for nearly everything.
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    Driving your own car to an airport is usually not a great idea even if you have one that can make the trip easily.
    - dreamcompiler 5y ago
      There's not much of an alternative if you live 100 miles from the airport. Even if you could find an Uber the cost would exceed the parking fee.
- dahfizz 5y ago

maverick-iceman 5y ago

You are already paying the EV much more than an ICE (meaning you are basically buying all the "fuel" upfront) You have longer times of recharge (20-240 minutes) vs a 35 seconds gasoline splash and go Unless the US goes full Norway and decides to ban Gas cars in city centres , then you'd be getting an inferior product at a higher price point That's the hard truth

emodendroket 5y ago
If gas were to become expensive enough I bet people would think harder about it.

elcapitan 5y ago

Long range driving is actually pretty typical for business people in Germany, which is an important customer group because of company cars.

stirlo 5y ago

I walk to work (when not working from home) and only use my car for long trips to regional areas (visiting family and outdoor activities). I’d love to buy an EV but unfortunately current range limitations make them the perfect commuter car but an inferior weekend/holiday driver. I am excited by any company that wants to invest in increased range.

packetlost 5y ago

I live in the midwest. There's 300-600 miles between major cities, which I visit multiple times per year. Couple that with the winter months where EV batteries lose some significant percentage of range there's little chance I, or many people, could own an EV as an only vehicle anytime soon.

m_myers 5y ago

I'm just tired of "commuter" EVs that don't have enough range for my 30-minute commute (17 miles each way). I'd need at least a 60 mile range to be able to get to the farthest reaches of the nearest city and back. That seems to put me in Tesla territory, and the price doesn't make sense for the purpose.

avianlyric 5y ago
Don't know where you're getting those figures from. A cheap little Renault Zoe will do ~200 miles. The VW ID.4 has similar range. A Nissan Leaf will do ~150 real world miles. I can't think of any modern EV that does less that ~150 real world miles on single charge. Except for those go-karts like the Renault Twizy, but that isn't a car.

fy20 5y ago

I think in general you are correct, however infrastructure is still hit and miss right now, so you really need to plan ahead (including contingencies). I rented an EV through a car sharing app the other week, and the first place I went to charge only had slow chargers. I stayed as I needed to grab lunch, but it added only maybe 10km of range. Later on the trip I stopped somewhere else I knew had fast and slow chargers but all the fast chargers were out of service. I only needed another 20km of range, so I just waited a hour while making a few phone calls, no big deal, but if I'd planned to fully recharge the car it would have been painful. For commuting it's a different story as you can find out where all the chargers are on your route, and you'll learn which are most reliable and least busy. I have seen a few Teslas in my country with plates from the other side of Europe, so I guess it can work...

emodendroket 5y ago
Yeah, totally agreed there. It's only just starting to get to the point where it is practical.

nicbou 5y ago

That's pretty much the only reason I drive. I average 15,000km a year on my motorcycle alone. I drive maybe 500km a year in the city. My case is atypical, but the case of people driving home to see their family is not. Driving 600km in a day would be difficult if it requires a mid-day charge and a parking space near a charger at night. Yet that's the distance I cover to visit my grandparents. In winter.

cptskippy 5y ago
> Driving 600km in a day would be difficult if it requires a mid-day charge and a parking space near a charger at night. I regularly did a (570mi)918km trip (Atlanta to Jelico and back) in one day in my Tesla Model 3. It took 2-3 stops totally about an hour charge time.
- nicbou 5y ago
  That's fine if the infrastructure is there, and your range isn't diminishes by temperature. It's honestly acceptable for many people. It doesn't really suit my needs (I venture further out), but I concede that plenty of people would be just fine with this.
  - cptskippy 5y ago
    > It's honestly acceptable for many people. The reality is that it's acceptable for the majority of people. Many families could replace both vehicles with an EV, most families could replace one vehicle with an EV. The sentiment that's perpetuated that "it wouldn't work for me" needs to die. Yes there are people and scenarios where it wouldn't work, and unfortunately those boundary conditions are being touted vocally and negatively shaping public sentiment. If public sentiment were to shift strongly in favor of EV transition, it would still take decades and companies would actively start looking for solutions to the boundary conditions but as long as a vocal minority is online saying "this will never work for me" then there's always going to be push back slowing or stifling adoption. Everyone who feels the urge to standup and say "no, this won't work for me" either needs to engage in find a solution that will or just sit down and shut up.

mint2 5y ago

Rental companies generally seem to frown on taking their cars off paved roads. Of the 12k on my car, 9-10k of that was road trips around California. It’s easy to rack up miles if you’re into outdoor recreation. 500-600 mile range would be great, 400 mile range a minimum. 300 mile range is not practical at all. I’m assuming we’re talking advertised ranges, if it got 350 under taxing driving conditions and ac use or freezing weather that would be acceptable.

mrgordon 5y ago

You’re totally right. And then the entire city is built for giant SUVs when it should be built for people to walk

turtlebits 5y ago

When fast charging takes over an hour (Chevy bolt fast charges at 50kw, less in actual use), you do really have to plan trips. A majority of EV owners don't have L2 charging at home, and a short 30 mile weekend trip (60 both ways) is more than a L1 charger can replenish overnight. Way more if you use AC or drive when in cold weather. I can easily drive more than I can daily charge with errands or driving the kids to class/camp.

formerly_proven 5y ago
If you use 230 V instead of 110 V, and three-phase instead of split-phase, the lowest charging tier becomes 3 kW (instead of 110 V @ 15 A = something like 1.5 kW), and pretty much anyone who has a car hole can easily install a 11 or 22 kW charger. This might make a pretty big difference in the end for all the house-owning people. The American decision to use intentionally limited, low-tier electricity grids as a cudgel to enforce zoning shows yet another facet of externalities.
- turtlebits 5y ago
  It's easy if you have the $$$. Personally, I don't want to spend a few thousand to buy a charger and have an electrician run a 240v plug to my detached garage. On my old house, there wasn't enough capacity to add another 240v breaker.

fooker 5y ago

>How often are you going on road trips? Once per weekend, on average. So far, this makes EVs a non starter for me.

ffggvv 5y ago

not everyone owns a house with charging. my apartment doesn’t have chargers. i care about range because i don’t want to waste a few hours charging my car somewhere. my gas car i just spend 10 mins filling up gas every few weeks

runako 5y ago

> How often are you going on road trips? It's not the frequency, it's the notion that one will have purchased a "bad" vehicle. Here, "bad" means that you need to rent another car[1] in order to go on a road trip. People buy cars for convenience, and renting a car to use instead of the car you own is not convenient. It's not odd to expect a new car to be as functional as one's current car over the course of a single year. 1 - The last time I rented a vehicle for a road trip (we had an extra guest, so wouldn't fit in my car), the total cost was ~$1,000. If we needed to rent a car twice in a year due to owning a range-limited EV, that would effectively add ~$167/mo to the cost of ownership of the EV.

emodendroket 5y ago
Yes, of course, that's what is in their heads. But it is a strange notion of "convenience" to be locked into certain patterns of living and purchase just to make sure we can easily do something we do very occasionally. I'm not sure where you rented, but from what I've seen a typical car rental is $40/day. It'd have to be long road trips before that really added up.
- listenallyall 5y ago
  $40 is almost surely a pre-pandemic number, as rental cars have mostly doubled or more since. Go see what a car costs in Southern California, or Albuquerque, for example. Further, that price is without any insurance, and likely a small car, while plenty of people going on a road trip need a much larger car to fit the whole family + luggage + extras like camping equipment, the dog, etc.
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    Not so. I actually rented a car in LA a few weeks ago, which is why I had the figure in mind. See for yourself: https://i.imgur.com/aWL365O.png https://i.imgur.com/aWL365O.png Vans appear to be slightly more expensive but not outrageously so (and honestly it's not at all uncommon to get a free upgrade when you book the economy car). As for insurance, why would our hypothetical family need to get insurance? Surely they already have it, if they have a car that they drive.

rdtwo 5y ago

In theory you are right but renting infrastructure sucks across the board. There are so many things that would make more sense to rent vs own but the cost and inconvenience of renting makes it difficult to do. Right now a week rental car in some areas will run you 700$. Plus it’s super inconvenient plus you might not be able to get a vehicle you want. Did you know you aren’t allowed to tow with a rental car for example? Another example I checked my local REI and the only thing still left to rent out for this weekend is hiking poles. And that’s considering REI charges like 20% of retail per rental

BluePen8 5y ago

What about frequency of charging? I once commuted on a motorcycle with the range of my daily commute (about 120 miles). Despite how ubiquitous gas stations are, and how fast I could swipe by VISA and pump 2 gallons, it was still incredibly annoying. Those daily 4 minute pit stops were infuriating, I can't imaging having to spend half an hour at a EV charging station twice a week.

emodendroket 5y ago
I would imagine you would want to have a charger at home and/or at the office.

nybble41 5y ago

> How often are you going on road trips? Over the last 18 months or so, between remote work and lockdown, journeys of 350+ miles with minimal stops (< 30 minutes total) probably make up about ¾ of the trips and 90%+ of the miles on my vehicle. A typical pre-COVID year would see about half a dozen trips like that (one way) mixed with commuting and trips around town—with the longer trips still making up a majority of the total miles driven. As I see it, at least in my situation, the ability to handle a 350+ mile trip smoothly and efficiently with at most one stop of 30 minutes or less is a basic requirement for any vehicle I would be willing to consider. Anything short of that would be a significant downgrade in practical terms from my current vehicle—an inexpensive, decade-old non-hybrid Honda Fit Sport which still manages 35 MPG on the highway. Ecologically speaking, if I'm not using the EV for these longer trips then the environmental benefit of switching would be practically nil. Most of the miles driven would still be in a gas-burning vehicle. The same goes for a PHEV. We need to acknowledge that the shorter range and longer "refueling" times of EVs are significant practical issues standing in the way of EV adoption, and not ignore or downplay them. Fortunately we're finally starting to see some pure EVs with the necessary range, and also making some progress on building out suitable charging infrastructure. Now if we could just address the proliferation of brand-specific and member-only charging networks…

throwawaysea 5y ago

No, renting would not be fine. People take vacations and long day trips, often at the same time as everyone else. The rental supply simply can't satisfy that amount of demand. It doesn't matter if hauling cargo or driving long distances is infrequent or even a small percentage of miles driven - it is a core use case for vehicles. Otherwise, people would simply not be able to do the things they do on holidays.

emodendroket 5y ago
I would like to see a citation that very many of these are by car... and satisfying vacation demand is, anyway, a pretty substantial part of what the entire car rental industry already exists for. All those people at the airport didn't take their cars with them.
- throwawaysea 5y ago
  Yes there is enough rental capacity for air travelers. But there are substantially more vacationers traveling by car. There isn’t enough rental capacity for them and it wouldn’t make economic sense to keep rental capacity around for the surge of demand around holidays. Current rental capacity works because it is matched up to flight capacity, which is stable and predictable.
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    I have my doubts that this is true among several axes: 1) do more people really travel by car? 2) how could air travel not be highly seasonal when school breaks generally line up? Hotels are certainly priced like it's seasonal. Don't they already have that problem? 3) If the scenario we were talking about became more commonplace, wouldn't we expect capacity to increase to meet demand?