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You're not wrong, but at the very least it'd be handy to have self-driving at least on, say, highways. It could help with traffic flow efficiency, as well as he

You're not wrong, but at the very least it'd be handy to have self-driving at least on, say, highways. It could help with traffic flow efficiency, as well as help eliminating traffic waves: * http://trafficwaves.org http://trafficwaves.org * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_wave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_wave In cities, perhaps streetcars/trams could be made self-driving at least. Labour is a big expense in transit, and if we want more frequent service (which could encourage ridership), then scaling more drivers may not be economical.

NumberCruncher 5y ago
> very least it'd be handy to have self-driving at least on, say, highways Me too, like driving home after a long day on the highway, being sleepy, in the night, while raining. Good luck with that: [1] [1] https://9gag.com/gag/azMv16z https://9gag.com/gag/azMv16z
- throw0101a 5y ago
  I live in Canada. Good luck with snow-covered roads: * http://icyroadsafety.com/icyroad1d.shtml http://icyroadsafety.com/icyroad1d.shtml
  - fragmede 5y ago
    lol, have you seen humans try and drive in the snow? Especially any of them who have AWD/4WD and snow tires makes them invincible? If you've ever had to brake in below-freezing conditions and ABS has kicked in, you're already trusting a computer to be better than a human at that task. Now granted, ABS is a far more limited system, with way more limited inputs and outputs, so the calculation and algorithms and code involved are dramatically easier, and self driving cars have a long way to go still, imo, but trivializing it to "lol snow" disregards the interesting technical challenges involved before self driving in snow can be solved for. You seem to think you have some expertise driving in winter - what is the biggest single challenge that self-driving cars face trying to drive in the snow?
    - tuatoru 5y ago
      > lol, have you seen humans try and drive ... This hints at an interesting issue. The difficult problems with self driving are not going to be the technical ones (driving in X environmental conditions) but the social ones. Self driving cars are going to need a theory of mind (be able to make good guesses about what mistakes other road users could make), and also behave in ways that don't make human road users uncomfortable. The latter is relatively easy, but the former is hard - never mind Theory of Mind, some self driving software doesn't even seem to have object permanence. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind 2. https://www.simplypsychology.org/Object-Permanence.html https://www.simplypsychology.org/Object-Permanence.html
    - throwaway81523 5y ago
      If the car takes over-the-air software updates, they are advertising up front that they don't believe themselves able to debug the car before they sell it to you. Normal ECU's, ABS brakes etc. do not need OTA updates. There is no absolute certainty about anything, but such issues are rare enough to be handled with product recalls.
  - helpfulfact1 5y ago
    Snow is opaque to light, but not radar, which means it’s actually fairly easy to work around this in car sensor suites. The same also applies to many types of foliage and grasses. The metal content of the line paint and the material of the roadway surface and guard rails are pretty easy to differentiate with other sensors.
ziml77 5y ago
This is one of the reasons that I really hope we get self-driving cars working well. They have the potential to do so much better at avoiding creating traffic issues. Short traffic lights have for a decade+ now made me wish humans weren't involved in driving. You get that traffic wave effect except it's extremely noticeable what's happening as you see each car ahead of you delayed in reacting to the light changing to green, so you end up having half the number of cars get through than it seems should be able to. The optimal handling in terms of getting cars through the intersection would be every car in the line moving at the exact same time, something that only self-driving cars would be able to do safely.
- _nalply 5y ago
  This will only work if the cars ahead of you accelerate stronger than you. Standing cars don't need as much distance as driving cars. Self-driving cars might not need the distance if they are networked because if the first car brakes all cars in the group brake simultaneously.
  - ziml77 5y ago
    Yes, of course it would also require them to be communicating to completely avoid the delay between each car being able to start moving. But I still believe that even only having information from its own sensors a self-driving car could safely begin accelerating sooner than a human driver since the largest buffer zone it really needs is just the braking distance. Slow human reaction time is removed from the equation.
    - AstralStorm 5y ago
      How do you discriminate a typical slowdown due to road conditions from full braking? You really cannot without additional information. But a sensor equipped (not even self driving) car can and forward this information. Simple things like broadcasting brake status, turning lights status and engine RPM of the nearby vehicles, and if available, emergency braking notice or traction control notice would do wonders, but we have not standardized on any such system of info somehow. Not even for people. A simple info about being passed or nearby road signs send to a car's HUD/console would do a lot for safety, potentially. Smart road, then smart cars, then self driving cars. Skipping steps won't do. Fast trains have these systems already (both local radio and central) despite much more controlled conditions, but somehow car roads don't get them.

NumberCruncher 5y ago

> very least it'd be handy to have self-driving at least on, say, highways Me too, like driving home after a long day on the highway, being sleepy, in the night, while raining. Good luck with that: [1] [1] https://9gag.com/gag/azMv16z https://9gag.com/gag/azMv16z

throw0101a 5y ago
I live in Canada. Good luck with snow-covered roads: * http://icyroadsafety.com/icyroad1d.shtml http://icyroadsafety.com/icyroad1d.shtml
- fragmede 5y ago
  lol, have you seen humans try and drive in the snow? Especially any of them who have AWD/4WD and snow tires makes them invincible? If you've ever had to brake in below-freezing conditions and ABS has kicked in, you're already trusting a computer to be better than a human at that task. Now granted, ABS is a far more limited system, with way more limited inputs and outputs, so the calculation and algorithms and code involved are dramatically easier, and self driving cars have a long way to go still, imo, but trivializing it to "lol snow" disregards the interesting technical challenges involved before self driving in snow can be solved for. You seem to think you have some expertise driving in winter - what is the biggest single challenge that self-driving cars face trying to drive in the snow?
  - tuatoru 5y ago
    > lol, have you seen humans try and drive ... This hints at an interesting issue. The difficult problems with self driving are not going to be the technical ones (driving in X environmental conditions) but the social ones. Self driving cars are going to need a theory of mind (be able to make good guesses about what mistakes other road users could make), and also behave in ways that don't make human road users uncomfortable. The latter is relatively easy, but the former is hard - never mind Theory of Mind, some self driving software doesn't even seem to have object permanence. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind 2. https://www.simplypsychology.org/Object-Permanence.html https://www.simplypsychology.org/Object-Permanence.html
  - throwaway81523 5y ago
    If the car takes over-the-air software updates, they are advertising up front that they don't believe themselves able to debug the car before they sell it to you. Normal ECU's, ABS brakes etc. do not need OTA updates. There is no absolute certainty about anything, but such issues are rare enough to be handled with product recalls.
- helpfulfact1 5y ago
  Snow is opaque to light, but not radar, which means it’s actually fairly easy to work around this in car sensor suites. The same also applies to many types of foliage and grasses. The metal content of the line paint and the material of the roadway surface and guard rails are pretty easy to differentiate with other sensors.

ziml77 5y ago

This is one of the reasons that I really hope we get self-driving cars working well. They have the potential to do so much better at avoiding creating traffic issues. Short traffic lights have for a decade+ now made me wish humans weren't involved in driving. You get that traffic wave effect except it's extremely noticeable what's happening as you see each car ahead of you delayed in reacting to the light changing to green, so you end up having half the number of cars get through than it seems should be able to. The optimal handling in terms of getting cars through the intersection would be every car in the line moving at the exact same time, something that only self-driving cars would be able to do safely.

_nalply 5y ago
This will only work if the cars ahead of you accelerate stronger than you. Standing cars don't need as much distance as driving cars. Self-driving cars might not need the distance if they are networked because if the first car brakes all cars in the group brake simultaneously.
- ziml77 5y ago
  Yes, of course it would also require them to be communicating to completely avoid the delay between each car being able to start moving. But I still believe that even only having information from its own sensors a self-driving car could safely begin accelerating sooner than a human driver since the largest buffer zone it really needs is just the braking distance. Slow human reaction time is removed from the equation.
  - AstralStorm 5y ago
    How do you discriminate a typical slowdown due to road conditions from full braking? You really cannot without additional information. But a sensor equipped (not even self driving) car can and forward this information. Simple things like broadcasting brake status, turning lights status and engine RPM of the nearby vehicles, and if available, emergency braking notice or traction control notice would do wonders, but we have not standardized on any such system of info somehow. Not even for people. A simple info about being passed or nearby road signs send to a car's HUD/console would do a lot for safety, potentially. Smart road, then smart cars, then self driving cars. Skipping steps won't do. Fast trains have these systems already (both local radio and central) despite much more controlled conditions, but somehow car roads don't get them.