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I fully believe that Element want Matrix to be decentralised and diverse, but I don't think it's actually true. Despite years of deployment, 90%[1] of the work

I fully believe that Element want Matrix to be decentralised and diverse, but I don't think it's actually true. Despite years of deployment, 90%[1] of the work is still done by paid Element employees rather than the community. Could you imagine a world where Microsoft make 90% of the effort to Linux and still tried to call it diverse? Likewise, the vast majority (>80% anecdotally) of users on the main Matrix federated network live on a single instance centrally administered by matrix.org. Again, not a shining example of decentralisation at work. My worry isn't about Matrix the protocol, though I think it leaves many aspects to be desired. My worry is that the fate of Matrix rests on Element Co, which seems to be a default-dead start up, repeatedly needs to seek funding, and nearly went bust in the past. [1]: https://lobste.rs/s/emxymp/introducing_p2p_matrix#c_ilr501 https://lobste.rs/s/emxymp/introducing_p2p_matrix#c_ilr501

Arathorn 5y ago
Lots of confusion here. The lobsters comment is from me, a year ago, talking about the spec and implementation work published by the Matrix core team - i.e. the contents of https://github.com/matrix-org https://github.com/matrix-org. Matrix started in 2014, and the core team formed Element in 2017 to fund its work, so it should hardly be surprising that much of that code comes from Element employees. Just as if Linus had chosen to fund himself to work on the linux kernel by creating a startup, the balance of code in the kernel would be different. Nowadays I'd guess it's more like 75% of the code at github.com/matrix-org which comes from Element employees contracted to work on Matrix by the Matrix.org Foundation. However, across the wider ecosystem, Element's contributions are an increasingly small minority. There are completely new independent implementations out there like Conduit.rs (rust server) or the whole FluffyChat stack (cross-platform flutter clients) which have almost no contributions from Element and build on entirely different codebases to the reference implementations at https://github.com/matrix-org https://github.com/matrix-org. So, where it counts, I'd guess that Element probably does <20% of the overall code in the Matrix ecosystem? > Likewise, the vast majority (>80% anecdotally) of users on the main Matrix federated network live on a single instance centrally administered by matrix.org. Looking at the phonehome stats, it's more like 30%. > My worry is that the fate of Matrix rests on Element Co, which seems to be a default-dead start up Nope, if you read the Element blog post at https://element.io/blog/element-raises-30m-as-matrix-explodes/ https://element.io/blog/element-raises-30m-as-matrix-explode..., you'll see that Element is explicitly default-alive. > repeatedly needs to seek funding Nope, we didn't need to seek funding in this instance; we consciously chose to. We could have just continued profitably at a slower rate, but we wanted to go faster in order to compete with Discord & Teams etc. > and nearly went bust in the past. Nope, Element was formed after we lost funding for the original Matrix work... which is why we formed the company.
- hjhcxz 5y ago
  I'm sure the comment you're replying to is being downvoted by employees of your company and your fanboys, but it isn't false, even if you contradict the claims without evidence. And yes, I know who you are. It's very unprofessional how you conduct yourself on HN, wading into the comments. People are allowed to question the motivations of your company. I know I do, and your petty replies on HN continually convince me that Matrix is a joke; the CEO can't even let the community handle criticism of the project, no, he always takes it personally. Call me when dendrite is feature complete (never) or when a third party homeserver is completed (definitely will never happen, you list some and your site has listed them for years, but they aren't usable. It's a lie, one I'm flabbergasted you have repeated above, frankly. A bald faced lie, but since Matrix is a fake federation protocol the layers of lies shouldn't surprise me) Wake me up when you figure out how to do username account routing with DNS like XMPP does so that you don't need a centralized identity server Or does it benefit you somehow that Matrix isn't able to be implemented by a third party? Does the centralized identity server benefit you? Probably. Enjoy fleecing more investors and sucking the air out of the federated chat space!
  - emptysongglass 5y ago
    I downvoted you (I'm not an employee or affiliated with Matrix in any way except that I selfhost Synapse because it's cool) because you've veered off the good faith criticism path into paranoia and what looks like a personal vendetta, which I can't understand what for. This is a tech chat product but the way you dig into it makes it sound like you have bones to pick with someone who came to your house and killed your cat.
    - hjhcxz 5y ago
      "Arathorn" is the only tech CEO who has personally insulted me in past comments, when I used to be much more charitable, so yeah it's personal. I listed problems I had trying to run Synapse and explained the fake identity federation and he came out of the woodwork to run interference about how it's ONLY name addressing that isn't federated, as though that matters So yeah, it is personal. I love chat protocols and federation and want to be excited about Matrix but "Arathorn" is a liar and an asshole and he's made it personal. The protocol has serious problems and isn't above criticism but "Arathorn" isn't open to it. And he's sullying a good JRR Tolkien reference with his handle. He doesn't deserve that handle, that's why it's in scare quotes.
gregwebs 5y ago
What other projects would be an example of a fast growing open source project with lots of development and that are highly distributed?
- stevenicr 5y ago
  You mean like wordpress.org ?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
samatman 5y ago
As a practical matter, I'm not concerned about this. The French government pays for support on a large Matrix deployment, a couple German states and the Bundeswehr do as well. Those kinds of anchor clients leave me sanguine about the prospects of Matrix and Element. As for decentralization, what the ~80% do is totally irrelevant to the other 20% of us. My company finally got off Slack (where 100% of users are trapped in a ransomware monolith) and we couldn't be happier. I federate with a couple other servers and it all Just Works. Matrix is federated, and the way federated decentralization tends to play out involves a few big 'continents' and a vast archipelago of small instances. If you want true decentralization you have to force it with a peer-to-peer architecture, like Urbit or Secure Scuttlebutt. Those have their place, but so does Matrix.
GekkePrutser 5y ago
It's really time for dendrite to mature as synapse is pretty heavy. I think a lightweight home server will really help adoption.
- genewitch 5y ago
  I run synapse on Gentoo and it uses next to no resources except disk. Load averages 0.03 for all, 366.6MB used, 97% idle. 14 days uptime.[0] This is like rpi model B compatible. We only have 5 users, and we use coturn on the same machine, but three of those users are also linked to glitter and matrix.org channels/rooms. The ~/synapse directory weighs in at 5GB with 2GB of that being logs. The setup took me a 'few hours' over two nights, but my work revolves around setting up services and software[0] - it may take someone else a couple of days to correctly set up and run it. [0] uptime reflects the rolling nature of Gentoo, and I had a certificate update at the same time, reboots are inevitable. I start with Gentoo with any new online service, since I know the pain points and failure modes. This homeserver is run on a VM in a datacenter. I have no complaints about synapse so far.

Arathorn 5y ago

Lots of confusion here. The lobsters comment is from me, a year ago, talking about the spec and implementation work published by the Matrix core team - i.e. the contents of https://github.com/matrix-org https://github.com/matrix-org. Matrix started in 2014, and the core team formed Element in 2017 to fund its work, so it should hardly be surprising that much of that code comes from Element employees. Just as if Linus had chosen to fund himself to work on the linux kernel by creating a startup, the balance of code in the kernel would be different. Nowadays I'd guess it's more like 75% of the code at github.com/matrix-org which comes from Element employees contracted to work on Matrix by the Matrix.org Foundation. However, across the wider ecosystem, Element's contributions are an increasingly small minority. There are completely new independent implementations out there like Conduit.rs (rust server) or the whole FluffyChat stack (cross-platform flutter clients) which have almost no contributions from Element and build on entirely different codebases to the reference implementations at https://github.com/matrix-org https://github.com/matrix-org. So, where it counts, I'd guess that Element probably does <20% of the overall code in the Matrix ecosystem? > Likewise, the vast majority (>80% anecdotally) of users on the main Matrix federated network live on a single instance centrally administered by matrix.org. Looking at the phonehome stats, it's more like 30%. > My worry is that the fate of Matrix rests on Element Co, which seems to be a default-dead start up Nope, if you read the Element blog post at https://element.io/blog/element-raises-30m-as-matrix-explodes/ https://element.io/blog/element-raises-30m-as-matrix-explode..., you'll see that Element is explicitly default-alive. > repeatedly needs to seek funding Nope, we didn't need to seek funding in this instance; we consciously chose to. We could have just continued profitably at a slower rate, but we wanted to go faster in order to compete with Discord & Teams etc. > and nearly went bust in the past. Nope, Element was formed after we lost funding for the original Matrix work... which is why we formed the company.

hjhcxz 5y ago
I'm sure the comment you're replying to is being downvoted by employees of your company and your fanboys, but it isn't false, even if you contradict the claims without evidence. And yes, I know who you are. It's very unprofessional how you conduct yourself on HN, wading into the comments. People are allowed to question the motivations of your company. I know I do, and your petty replies on HN continually convince me that Matrix is a joke; the CEO can't even let the community handle criticism of the project, no, he always takes it personally. Call me when dendrite is feature complete (never) or when a third party homeserver is completed (definitely will never happen, you list some and your site has listed them for years, but they aren't usable. It's a lie, one I'm flabbergasted you have repeated above, frankly. A bald faced lie, but since Matrix is a fake federation protocol the layers of lies shouldn't surprise me) Wake me up when you figure out how to do username account routing with DNS like XMPP does so that you don't need a centralized identity server Or does it benefit you somehow that Matrix isn't able to be implemented by a third party? Does the centralized identity server benefit you? Probably. Enjoy fleecing more investors and sucking the air out of the federated chat space!
- emptysongglass 5y ago
  I downvoted you (I'm not an employee or affiliated with Matrix in any way except that I selfhost Synapse because it's cool) because you've veered off the good faith criticism path into paranoia and what looks like a personal vendetta, which I can't understand what for. This is a tech chat product but the way you dig into it makes it sound like you have bones to pick with someone who came to your house and killed your cat.
  - hjhcxz 5y ago
    "Arathorn" is the only tech CEO who has personally insulted me in past comments, when I used to be much more charitable, so yeah it's personal. I listed problems I had trying to run Synapse and explained the fake identity federation and he came out of the woodwork to run interference about how it's ONLY name addressing that isn't federated, as though that matters So yeah, it is personal. I love chat protocols and federation and want to be excited about Matrix but "Arathorn" is a liar and an asshole and he's made it personal. The protocol has serious problems and isn't above criticism but "Arathorn" isn't open to it. And he's sullying a good JRR Tolkien reference with his handle. He doesn't deserve that handle, that's why it's in scare quotes.

gregwebs 5y ago

What other projects would be an example of a fast growing open source project with lots of development and that are highly distributed?

stevenicr 5y ago
You mean like wordpress.org ?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

samatman 5y ago

As a practical matter, I'm not concerned about this. The French government pays for support on a large Matrix deployment, a couple German states and the Bundeswehr do as well. Those kinds of anchor clients leave me sanguine about the prospects of Matrix and Element. As for decentralization, what the ~80% do is totally irrelevant to the other 20% of us. My company finally got off Slack (where 100% of users are trapped in a ransomware monolith) and we couldn't be happier. I federate with a couple other servers and it all Just Works. Matrix is federated, and the way federated decentralization tends to play out involves a few big 'continents' and a vast archipelago of small instances. If you want true decentralization you have to force it with a peer-to-peer architecture, like Urbit or Secure Scuttlebutt. Those have their place, but so does Matrix.

GekkePrutser 5y ago

It's really time for dendrite to mature as synapse is pretty heavy. I think a lightweight home server will really help adoption.

genewitch 5y ago
I run synapse on Gentoo and it uses next to no resources except disk. Load averages 0.03 for all, 366.6MB used, 97% idle. 14 days uptime.[0] This is like rpi model B compatible. We only have 5 users, and we use coturn on the same machine, but three of those users are also linked to glitter and matrix.org channels/rooms. The ~/synapse directory weighs in at 5GB with 2GB of that being logs. The setup took me a 'few hours' over two nights, but my work revolves around setting up services and software[0] - it may take someone else a couple of days to correctly set up and run it. [0] uptime reflects the rolling nature of Gentoo, and I had a certificate update at the same time, reboots are inevitable. I start with Gentoo with any new online service, since I know the pain points and failure modes. This homeserver is run on a VM in a datacenter. I have no complaints about synapse so far.