6 ms·

Matrix is a protocol because... it's a protocol. The spec is at https://matrix.org/docs/spec https://matrix.org/docs/spec. There are loads of completely indep

Matrix is a protocol because... it's a protocol. The spec is at https://matrix.org/docs/spec https://matrix.org/docs/spec. There are loads of completely independent implementations of it, both clientside and serverside. Additionally, the spec is governed by the non-profit Matrix.org Foundation (https://matrix.org/foundation https://matrix.org/foundation). It's true that we (the team who created Matrix) also created Element as a for-profit startup to fund the core team to work fulltime on Matrix - and as anyone who works at Element will tell you, the reason the company exists is to grow Matrix and make it successful. In an ideal world Matrix ends up being a huge industry in its own right, effectively replacing the PSTN & email industries, and Element ends up with some small (10%?) marketshare alongside loads of other Matrix vendors out there doing their thing. Just as XMPP wouldn't have happened if Jabber Inc hadn't bootstrapped the ecosystem back in the day; Element has a similar (but hopefully more successful) mission with Matrix. Or, perhaps similar to how Netscape helped bootstrap the open Web. In other words: you are wrong; it's not a facade.

ThePhysicist 5y ago
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- Arathorn 5y ago
  what are you talking about? Are you confusing Parity with Protocol Labs? They are completely unrelated companies (other than both beginning with the letter P :/)
  - ThePhysicist 5y ago
    Ah ok, my mistake, sorry.
jasonzemos 5y ago
> Element ends up with some small (10%?) marketshare alongside loads of other Matrix vendors out there doing their thing. What is a good reason for Element to relegate itself to only 10% of its own market and allow other vendors to pick up the remaining 90%? Can you name a product or service which Element is unable or unwilling to provide that competing investment could make returns on? If you can, why not pivot into that yourself? Can you assure parties investing in Matrix that Element is a trustworthy and synergistic counter-party?
- scrollaway 5y ago
  > What is a good reason for Element to relegate itself to only 10% of its own market and allow other vendors to pick up the remaining 90%? In a healthy ecosystem, the primary implementations do not represent most of the clients and servers. HTTP for example is healthy because there are many http servers, many http clients, they're all pretty compatible and replaceable, and none of them represent the primary implementation with its own off spec quirks that others need to take into account.
- OJFord 5y ago
  The obvious answer is that it would be jack-of-all-trading, and others would focus on one area, do it better, perceived to be better, or just differently.
- Arathorn 5y ago
  > What is a good reason for Element to relegate itself to only 10% of its own market and allow other vendors to pick up the remaining 90%? From a purely capitalist perspective, 10% of a $1TB industry is better than 100% of a $10B company.
- dsr_ 5y ago
  A growing ecosystem where the largest participant is 10% of the userbase is one which is immune from antitrust concerns. It's likely one that is responsive to user needs. It's everything that capitalists say that they want: a healthy competitive marketplace.
Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
Rocketchat also has the open spec. On 'loads of completely independent implementations': how can those independent developers stop Element from pushing some hypothetical changes to the protocol you would want to introduce against their wishes?
- Arathorn 5y ago
  They'd object, either while the MSC was being drafted, or during the FCP (Final Call for Proposal) period. If the Spec Core Team voted to merge something which the community didn't believe was aligned with Matrix, then they'd appeal to the board of the Foundation (i.e. the Guardians), who are legally obligated to ensure that the only things which get merged into the spec are aligned with the stated mission and values of the project (as per the Mission and Values sections of https://matrix.org/foundation https://matrix.org/foundation). If the Guardians fail to adhere this, they would complain to the UK non-profit regulator, and the foundation would get fined/dissolved. The recourse of the guardians would be to either get the Spec Core Team to change their mind or to replace the Spec Core Team to get back in line with the mission. The process for doing this is laid out in the Articles of Association of the foundation: https://matrix.org/media/2019-06-10%20-%20Matrix.org%20Foundation%20CIC%20Articles%20of%20Association.pdf https://matrix.org/media/2019-06-10%20-%20Matrix.org%20Found...
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    So, all the safeguarding positions are predominantly filled with Element employees (according to another commenter)? [1] Consider me not impressed. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27970233 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27970233
    - Arathorn 5y ago
      No, those are not the safeguarding positions; the Spec Core Team are the folks who approve PRs to the spec. Originally they were 50/50 element and non-element, although it's drifted thanks to members of the team choosing to work at Element so they can work on Matrix fulltime. The safeguarding positions are the directors of the Foundation (aka Guardians), which is very deliberately majority non-element (3:2). Why not spend your time improving XMPP rather than complaining about Matrix?
rkangel 5y ago
> effectively replacing the PSTN & email industries I could see a path to Matrix replacing email (and it's the only one of the current candidates I would be happy with doing that), but how could it end up replacing the telephone network? Does it have voice capability?
- lbotos 5y ago
  Matrix does support voice chat. I use it every day (and it's been pretty good.)
  - oever 5y ago
    Did you measure the latency? Latency should be below 100ms to have a pleasant conversation. Talking over a dedicated low-latency app like Jamulus is much nicer than the enormous latency in video calls.
    - lbotos 5y ago
      I have not measured the latency but if both participants are on wifi there is usually no perceptible latency with my participants. (US -> UK calling daily) If either of us is on mobile, sometimes latency can creep in, but this also happened on whatsapp too. That's the nature of mobile IMO.
- lokedhs 5y ago
  Yes. I haven't used it so I can't tell how complete it is. But it exists. https://matrix.org/blog/2018/02/05/3-d-video-calling-with-matrix-webrtc-and-webvr-at-fosdem-2018/ https://matrix.org/blog/2018/02/05/3-d-video-calling-with-ma...
- hestefisk 5y ago
  Yes there is VoIP capability. And video as well.

ThePhysicist 5y ago

Arathorn 5y ago
what are you talking about? Are you confusing Parity with Protocol Labs? They are completely unrelated companies (other than both beginning with the letter P :/)
- ThePhysicist 5y ago
  Ah ok, my mistake, sorry.

jasonzemos 5y ago

> Element ends up with some small (10%?) marketshare alongside loads of other Matrix vendors out there doing their thing. What is a good reason for Element to relegate itself to only 10% of its own market and allow other vendors to pick up the remaining 90%? Can you name a product or service which Element is unable or unwilling to provide that competing investment could make returns on? If you can, why not pivot into that yourself? Can you assure parties investing in Matrix that Element is a trustworthy and synergistic counter-party?

scrollaway 5y ago
> What is a good reason for Element to relegate itself to only 10% of its own market and allow other vendors to pick up the remaining 90%? In a healthy ecosystem, the primary implementations do not represent most of the clients and servers. HTTP for example is healthy because there are many http servers, many http clients, they're all pretty compatible and replaceable, and none of them represent the primary implementation with its own off spec quirks that others need to take into account.
OJFord 5y ago
The obvious answer is that it would be jack-of-all-trading, and others would focus on one area, do it better, perceived to be better, or just differently.
Arathorn 5y ago
> What is a good reason for Element to relegate itself to only 10% of its own market and allow other vendors to pick up the remaining 90%? From a purely capitalist perspective, 10% of a $1TB industry is better than 100% of a $10B company.
dsr_ 5y ago
A growing ecosystem where the largest participant is 10% of the userbase is one which is immune from antitrust concerns. It's likely one that is responsive to user needs. It's everything that capitalists say that they want: a healthy competitive marketplace.

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago

Rocketchat also has the open spec. On 'loads of completely independent implementations': how can those independent developers stop Element from pushing some hypothetical changes to the protocol you would want to introduce against their wishes?

Arathorn 5y ago
They'd object, either while the MSC was being drafted, or during the FCP (Final Call for Proposal) period. If the Spec Core Team voted to merge something which the community didn't believe was aligned with Matrix, then they'd appeal to the board of the Foundation (i.e. the Guardians), who are legally obligated to ensure that the only things which get merged into the spec are aligned with the stated mission and values of the project (as per the Mission and Values sections of https://matrix.org/foundation https://matrix.org/foundation). If the Guardians fail to adhere this, they would complain to the UK non-profit regulator, and the foundation would get fined/dissolved. The recourse of the guardians would be to either get the Spec Core Team to change their mind or to replace the Spec Core Team to get back in line with the mission. The process for doing this is laid out in the Articles of Association of the foundation: https://matrix.org/media/2019-06-10%20-%20Matrix.org%20Foundation%20CIC%20Articles%20of%20Association.pdf https://matrix.org/media/2019-06-10%20-%20Matrix.org%20Found...
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  So, all the safeguarding positions are predominantly filled with Element employees (according to another commenter)? [1] Consider me not impressed. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27970233 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27970233
  - Arathorn 5y ago
    No, those are not the safeguarding positions; the Spec Core Team are the folks who approve PRs to the spec. Originally they were 50/50 element and non-element, although it's drifted thanks to members of the team choosing to work at Element so they can work on Matrix fulltime. The safeguarding positions are the directors of the Foundation (aka Guardians), which is very deliberately majority non-element (3:2). Why not spend your time improving XMPP rather than complaining about Matrix?

rkangel 5y ago

> effectively replacing the PSTN & email industries I could see a path to Matrix replacing email (and it's the only one of the current candidates I would be happy with doing that), but how could it end up replacing the telephone network? Does it have voice capability?

lbotos 5y ago
Matrix does support voice chat. I use it every day (and it's been pretty good.)
- oever 5y ago
  Did you measure the latency? Latency should be below 100ms to have a pleasant conversation. Talking over a dedicated low-latency app like Jamulus is much nicer than the enormous latency in video calls.
  - lbotos 5y ago
    I have not measured the latency but if both participants are on wifi there is usually no perceptible latency with my participants. (US -> UK calling daily) If either of us is on mobile, sometimes latency can creep in, but this also happened on whatsapp too. That's the nature of mobile IMO.
lokedhs 5y ago
Yes. I haven't used it so I can't tell how complete it is. But it exists. https://matrix.org/blog/2018/02/05/3-d-video-calling-with-matrix-webrtc-and-webvr-at-fosdem-2018/ https://matrix.org/blog/2018/02/05/3-d-video-calling-with-ma...
hestefisk 5y ago
Yes there is VoIP capability. And video as well.