4 ms·

We are not angry about the lack of toys. We are angry about not having the possibility of using PWA as an app model. PWA are useless without Apple's support. M

by oaiey 5y ago

We are not angry about the lack of toys. We are angry about not having the possibility of using PWA as an app model. PWA are useless without Apple's support. My case was a WebBluetooth based download of data from a web page. Now I have to maintain two apps. Thanks.

rimliu 5y ago
PWAs are useless.
mrtksn 5y ago
Yes, and from users perspective I don't care. I find in eerie having the browser being an App platform. Chrome and Android are very dominant platforms, if it is something groundbreaking that can be done in that model it would be done in Android and Chrome and Apple will adopt it. Google is not an underdog.
- Leherenn 5y ago
  And as another user I care. I don't want to install yet another app to clutter my phone just to access something once that could be a webapp. The browser is an awesome delivery mechanism for stuff I'm going to use once/rarely: no install or uninstall needed.
  - mrtksn 5y ago
    I haven't seen a single website that doesn't require installation. The website installation process is much more painful than apps because first you need to install it to see it.
    - jeroenhd 5y ago
      What website requires installation? The ones I use all work perfectly fine just from the web UI with the option to install them?
      - mrtksn 5y ago
        All websites(with the exception of HN maybe?). Installation doesn't strictly mean putting the website on your home-screen. Whenever you encounter a new website you are required to go through installation process, you can't simply click a link and consume the content anymore. For most websites you need to read and accept the tracking terms and if you are not happy with the default options you need to do custom installation. For the majority of the websites, the next step is to decide if you like to sign up for e-mail marketing or create an account. Many will then ask you to follow them on their social media. On desktop, they will ask you to receive notifications too. After 2 to 5 clicks you have your website installed and can start looking for the content in between the ads. They don't have much monetisation opportunities so you will get all the ads at once. The installation is also not very persistent, if you are not using the website daily you will go through the same the next time.
        coupdejarnac 5y ago
        "Installing a website" is something I might expect my 70-something year old mother to say. Oh brother.
        mrtksn 5y ago
        Me and your mother might have many things in common but I doubt that the reasons of calling it "Website installation" is one of them. I would say that if you were familiar with the web technologies you would have seen the parallels. When you type an address of a website or click on a link your browser would download the website data from a server, which is very similar to what happens when you tap "Install". Once your website data is downloaded, the browser would execute the instructions in that data. Usually further resources would be downloaded and, UI drawn and functions executed. This is again very similar to any apps that you run once downloaded. Installation of an app implies making it ready to use. You can download an executable that runs right away or you can have an executable that prepares the environment for use. This is again exactly the same with visiting a website, it might be ready to use right away or in might need a set-up of the environment. In 2021, most websites need a setup process before use, you need to set up the ways you are about to be tracked and what information is to be shared with their partners. You need to decide if you like to sign up for newsletter, if you like to follow their social media accounts and more often than not you will be required to create an account. You will be prompted to set-up notifications too, if the browser support it. Often the native App installation is less tedious and less painful than the website installation process because the app can afford to assume that the device is a personal one and the stored data wont be erased accidentally, therefore the account creation process can be both transparent and persistent. With native apps, you get the chance to see the app before installation(App Store pages with description, screenshots and reviews), with websites you first need to finish the installation and then you get the chance to see the website. Anyway, I hope you see how a website could be installed and in fact is the standart modus operandi in 2021.
- hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
  I have the exact opposite view. I have tons of apps on my phone that really have no business being apps, they should just be websites but with push notifications. For example, I'm not a huge traveler (obviously not in the past year), but even before the pandemic I'd use AirBnB like once a year maybe. I don't want to download an app for something I use once a year. But before and during my trip push notifications are important because it's basically a messaging app with the owner. I'm not talking about things like games or something else with complicated UIs, I'm talking about basic CRUD functionality where I occasionally want a push - most of my banking apps fit this as well.
  - mrtksn 5y ago
    I agree that many Apps don't have business being apps and they are just low effort attempts, however I still don't want to have websites asking me if I want to receive notifications on mobile. Website installation process is very annoying already. I don't want more. Do I want you to track me? No. Do I want to sign up to your newsletter? No. Do I want to create account to see the links? Please no. Do I want to receive notifications? No. I need to go through all that just to view a page on a website. Apps are much better, I don't have to install it before seeing what is it all about thanks to the App Store page that includes a description, screenshots and reviews. If there's something that I need to be notified, websites will send me an e-mail and the mail client will show me a notification about that e-mail which will result in me being notified.
    - notsureaboutpg 5y ago
      Apps don't ask if you want to be tracked they just do it in the background. They don't ask if you want to sign up they force you to sign up to use the app. I can't believe the HN crowd likes spyware-loaded apps which take up expensive phone storage space and don't respect user choice over websites which ask you for everything they want to do.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > I have tons of apps on my phone that really have no business being apps I don't like them being apps because of the amount of privilege they gain. But if every site I visit on the web gains those privileges? That's a step backwards for me.
coldtea 5y ago
>We are not angry about the lack of toys. We are angry about not having the possibility of using PWA as an app model. I, on the other hand, am angry that PWA is even considered as an app model. A regression, if I ever saw one...
- oaiey 5y ago
  Fair perspective.
JimDabell 5y ago
> My case was a WebBluetooth based download of data from a web page. Web Bluetooth is not a web standard. It’s a Google API that only Blink supports. Firefox doesn’t support it either and doesn’t plan to: > This API provides access to the Generic Attribute Profile (GATT) of Bluetooth, which is not the lowest level of access that the specifications allow, but its generic nature makes it impossible to clearly evaluate. Like WebUSB there is significant uncertainty regarding how well prepared devices are to receive requests from arbitrary sites. The generic nature of the API means that this risk is difficult to manage. The Web Bluetooth CG has opted to only rely on user consent, which we believe is not sufficient protection. This proposal also uses a blocklist, which will require constant and active maintenance so that vulnerable devices aren't exploited. This model is unsustainable and presents a significant risk to users and their devices. — https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/#web-bluetooth https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/#web-bluetooth
mikl 5y ago
I understand your desire to build a web app with Bluetooth access, but there’s just too many scummy adtech/malware assholes out there that would use WebBluetooth as another way to do their nasty deeds. It cannot be done in a safe fashion, so better to not do it at all.

by oaiey 5y ago

rimliu 5y ago

PWAs are useless.

mrtksn 5y ago

Yes, and from users perspective I don't care. I find in eerie having the browser being an App platform. Chrome and Android are very dominant platforms, if it is something groundbreaking that can be done in that model it would be done in Android and Chrome and Apple will adopt it. Google is not an underdog.

Leherenn 5y ago
And as another user I care. I don't want to install yet another app to clutter my phone just to access something once that could be a webapp. The browser is an awesome delivery mechanism for stuff I'm going to use once/rarely: no install or uninstall needed.
- mrtksn 5y ago
  I haven't seen a single website that doesn't require installation. The website installation process is much more painful than apps because first you need to install it to see it.
  - jeroenhd 5y ago
    What website requires installation? The ones I use all work perfectly fine just from the web UI with the option to install them?
    - mrtksn 5y ago
      All websites(with the exception of HN maybe?). Installation doesn't strictly mean putting the website on your home-screen. Whenever you encounter a new website you are required to go through installation process, you can't simply click a link and consume the content anymore. For most websites you need to read and accept the tracking terms and if you are not happy with the default options you need to do custom installation. For the majority of the websites, the next step is to decide if you like to sign up for e-mail marketing or create an account. Many will then ask you to follow them on their social media. On desktop, they will ask you to receive notifications too. After 2 to 5 clicks you have your website installed and can start looking for the content in between the ads. They don't have much monetisation opportunities so you will get all the ads at once. The installation is also not very persistent, if you are not using the website daily you will go through the same the next time.
      - coupdejarnac 5y ago
        "Installing a website" is something I might expect my 70-something year old mother to say. Oh brother.
        mrtksn 5y ago
        Me and your mother might have many things in common but I doubt that the reasons of calling it "Website installation" is one of them. I would say that if you were familiar with the web technologies you would have seen the parallels. When you type an address of a website or click on a link your browser would download the website data from a server, which is very similar to what happens when you tap "Install". Once your website data is downloaded, the browser would execute the instructions in that data. Usually further resources would be downloaded and, UI drawn and functions executed. This is again very similar to any apps that you run once downloaded. Installation of an app implies making it ready to use. You can download an executable that runs right away or you can have an executable that prepares the environment for use. This is again exactly the same with visiting a website, it might be ready to use right away or in might need a set-up of the environment. In 2021, most websites need a setup process before use, you need to set up the ways you are about to be tracked and what information is to be shared with their partners. You need to decide if you like to sign up for newsletter, if you like to follow their social media accounts and more often than not you will be required to create an account. You will be prompted to set-up notifications too, if the browser support it. Often the native App installation is less tedious and less painful than the website installation process because the app can afford to assume that the device is a personal one and the stored data wont be erased accidentally, therefore the account creation process can be both transparent and persistent. With native apps, you get the chance to see the app before installation(App Store pages with description, screenshots and reviews), with websites you first need to finish the installation and then you get the chance to see the website. Anyway, I hope you see how a website could be installed and in fact is the standart modus operandi in 2021.
hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
I have the exact opposite view. I have tons of apps on my phone that really have no business being apps, they should just be websites but with push notifications. For example, I'm not a huge traveler (obviously not in the past year), but even before the pandemic I'd use AirBnB like once a year maybe. I don't want to download an app for something I use once a year. But before and during my trip push notifications are important because it's basically a messaging app with the owner. I'm not talking about things like games or something else with complicated UIs, I'm talking about basic CRUD functionality where I occasionally want a push - most of my banking apps fit this as well.
- mrtksn 5y ago
  I agree that many Apps don't have business being apps and they are just low effort attempts, however I still don't want to have websites asking me if I want to receive notifications on mobile. Website installation process is very annoying already. I don't want more. Do I want you to track me? No. Do I want to sign up to your newsletter? No. Do I want to create account to see the links? Please no. Do I want to receive notifications? No. I need to go through all that just to view a page on a website. Apps are much better, I don't have to install it before seeing what is it all about thanks to the App Store page that includes a description, screenshots and reviews. If there's something that I need to be notified, websites will send me an e-mail and the mail client will show me a notification about that e-mail which will result in me being notified.
  - notsureaboutpg 5y ago
    Apps don't ask if you want to be tracked they just do it in the background. They don't ask if you want to sign up they force you to sign up to use the app. I can't believe the HN crowd likes spyware-loaded apps which take up expensive phone storage space and don't respect user choice over websites which ask you for everything they want to do.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > I have tons of apps on my phone that really have no business being apps I don't like them being apps because of the amount of privilege they gain. But if every site I visit on the web gains those privileges? That's a step backwards for me.

coldtea 5y ago

>We are not angry about the lack of toys. We are angry about not having the possibility of using PWA as an app model. I, on the other hand, am angry that PWA is even considered as an app model. A regression, if I ever saw one...

oaiey 5y ago
Fair perspective.

JimDabell 5y ago

> My case was a WebBluetooth based download of data from a web page. Web Bluetooth is not a web standard. It’s a Google API that only Blink supports. Firefox doesn’t support it either and doesn’t plan to: > This API provides access to the Generic Attribute Profile (GATT) of Bluetooth, which is not the lowest level of access that the specifications allow, but its generic nature makes it impossible to clearly evaluate. Like WebUSB there is significant uncertainty regarding how well prepared devices are to receive requests from arbitrary sites. The generic nature of the API means that this risk is difficult to manage. The Web Bluetooth CG has opted to only rely on user consent, which we believe is not sufficient protection. This proposal also uses a blocklist, which will require constant and active maintenance so that vulnerable devices aren't exploited. This model is unsustainable and presents a significant risk to users and their devices. — https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/#web-bluetooth https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/#web-bluetooth

mikl 5y ago

I understand your desire to build a web app with Bluetooth access, but there’s just too many scummy adtech/malware assholes out there that would use WebBluetooth as another way to do their nasty deeds. It cannot be done in a safe fashion, so better to not do it at all.