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Actually, pretty sure it's only one reason, money. If they made Safari on iOS actually good (re: PWA notification support), it would burn into their App store

Actually, pretty sure it's only one reason, money. If they made Safari on iOS actually good (re: PWA notification support), it would burn into their App store profits.

foxes 5y ago
It can be both. Caring about the user experience is obviously going to increase their profit. But then they can also try to push people towards their store.
diebeforei485 5y ago
What sort of apps are in the intersection of being performant enough to be written in JavaScript and also generate lots of in-app purchase revenue (which is typically recurring revenue)? Certainly not most games, which are the biggest money-spinners, and also not pro camera apps or video editing apps. Video streaming apps (eg. Netflix / YouTube Premium) come to mind, but they don't rely too much on in app purchase I think. That leaves news apps like the New York Times which need notifications to deliver breaking stories, and perhaps dating apps with messaging/photo features. Thing is, for every New York Times, there are tons of "news" clickbait content farm websites out there, and I certainly don't need to elaborate on the risks of "free-for-all" dating apps with no enforced guidelines. I'd much rather Apple end the anti-steering rules where apps are not being allowed to tell people that they can subscribe on the website. Congress is working on this[1]. 1. https://stratechery.com/2021/the-cicilline-salvo/ https://stratechery.com/2021/the-cicilline-salvo/
- nmfisher 5y ago
  > What sort of apps are in the intersection of being performant enough to be written in JavaScript and also generate lots of in-app purchase revenue (which is typically recurring revenue)? Or maybe it's just selection bias - we don't see these types of apps because the experience is so fundamentally broken, noone ever bothers to develop them.
  - diebeforei485 5y ago
    We'd see at least one of them on the App Store, then. 30% revenue share is a lot (and I hope Congress bans the anti-steering provisions and apps can link you to their website to pay), but it doesn't kill entire categories of apps.
    - remus 5y ago
      > 30% revenue share is a lot...but it doesn't kill entire categories of apps. Personally Im not so optimistic. 30% is a huge chunk of revenue and is completely unworkable for anything that doesn't have a huge margin built-in.
- jeroenhd 5y ago
  I use a Home Assistant PWA that I'm quite happy with. No need to install native code that has access to everything on my device when I can interface with it from a browser sandbox. I also regularly use a local weather app that has an app version, stuffed with tracking, and a PWA version that gets protected against by my browsers privacy settings. There is also a very interesting project for programming certain ESP32 boards using WebSerial for easy to use home automation. You import some yaml and flash an ESP32 board without ever even installing the Arduino SDK. I think the problem is they we've reversed the question here. Why on earth should it even be acceptable that websites need an app for something as basic as watching videos, reading the news or checking the weather. Youtube and Netflix have no need for a native application if the developers actually cared about performance of their website. Especially Netflix should just work, because their web app also needs to work on ancient smart TVs and therefore has strict performance requirements. Dating apps where the most engaging thing you do is swipe in a direction and type into a basic chat screen also have no need for native code. There's a good reason Tinder works just fine as a PWA on every platform other than iOS. Those "free for all" dating apps do exist and have always existed. If they're illegal or immoral it's not up to Apple to pass judgement, that's what the legal system is for. I, for one, do not accept the tech overlords as my government.
  - diebeforei485 5y ago
    The ones you mentioned don't typically generate much revenue if any, so this is not about app store profits.
- collaborative 5y ago
  Web apps can now be written in WASM, which is just as performant as any "native" app. I for one am porting my native app to the web using this technology and find it is some times even faster than native java/objective c (ironic)
  - diebeforei485 5y ago
    See, this is hype. I don't find Figma (running in Chrome) to be as responsive as Illustrator or Pixelmator.
    - mattkevan 5y ago
      Figma is definitely not as responsive as a native app. The Figma Electron app with a large document open can bring my less-than-a-year-old MBP to its knees. Figma and Teams at the same time? Forget it. The same document in Sketch is fine.
Synaesthesia 5y ago
Safari is still the best mobile web browser in terms of performance and usability, and I'm using Firefox on Android, it's great, but Safari is the fastest.
- paxys 5y ago
  Considering there are no other browsers on iOS to compare to, Safari is obviously the fastest by default.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Jcowell 5y ago
    The OP is comparing to android browsers as well though.

Actually, pretty sure it's only one reason, money. If they made Safari on iOS actually good (re: PWA notification support), it would burn into their App store profits.

foxes 5y ago

It can be both. Caring about the user experience is obviously going to increase their profit. But then they can also try to push people towards their store.

diebeforei485 5y ago

What sort of apps are in the intersection of being performant enough to be written in JavaScript and also generate lots of in-app purchase revenue (which is typically recurring revenue)? Certainly not most games, which are the biggest money-spinners, and also not pro camera apps or video editing apps. Video streaming apps (eg. Netflix / YouTube Premium) come to mind, but they don't rely too much on in app purchase I think. That leaves news apps like the New York Times which need notifications to deliver breaking stories, and perhaps dating apps with messaging/photo features. Thing is, for every New York Times, there are tons of "news" clickbait content farm websites out there, and I certainly don't need to elaborate on the risks of "free-for-all" dating apps with no enforced guidelines. I'd much rather Apple end the anti-steering rules where apps are not being allowed to tell people that they can subscribe on the website. Congress is working on this[1]. 1. https://stratechery.com/2021/the-cicilline-salvo/ https://stratechery.com/2021/the-cicilline-salvo/

nmfisher 5y ago
> What sort of apps are in the intersection of being performant enough to be written in JavaScript and also generate lots of in-app purchase revenue (which is typically recurring revenue)? Or maybe it's just selection bias - we don't see these types of apps because the experience is so fundamentally broken, noone ever bothers to develop them.
- diebeforei485 5y ago
  We'd see at least one of them on the App Store, then. 30% revenue share is a lot (and I hope Congress bans the anti-steering provisions and apps can link you to their website to pay), but it doesn't kill entire categories of apps.
  - remus 5y ago
    > 30% revenue share is a lot...but it doesn't kill entire categories of apps. Personally Im not so optimistic. 30% is a huge chunk of revenue and is completely unworkable for anything that doesn't have a huge margin built-in.
jeroenhd 5y ago
I use a Home Assistant PWA that I'm quite happy with. No need to install native code that has access to everything on my device when I can interface with it from a browser sandbox. I also regularly use a local weather app that has an app version, stuffed with tracking, and a PWA version that gets protected against by my browsers privacy settings. There is also a very interesting project for programming certain ESP32 boards using WebSerial for easy to use home automation. You import some yaml and flash an ESP32 board without ever even installing the Arduino SDK. I think the problem is they we've reversed the question here. Why on earth should it even be acceptable that websites need an app for something as basic as watching videos, reading the news or checking the weather. Youtube and Netflix have no need for a native application if the developers actually cared about performance of their website. Especially Netflix should just work, because their web app also needs to work on ancient smart TVs and therefore has strict performance requirements. Dating apps where the most engaging thing you do is swipe in a direction and type into a basic chat screen also have no need for native code. There's a good reason Tinder works just fine as a PWA on every platform other than iOS. Those "free for all" dating apps do exist and have always existed. If they're illegal or immoral it's not up to Apple to pass judgement, that's what the legal system is for. I, for one, do not accept the tech overlords as my government.
- diebeforei485 5y ago
  The ones you mentioned don't typically generate much revenue if any, so this is not about app store profits.
collaborative 5y ago
Web apps can now be written in WASM, which is just as performant as any "native" app. I for one am porting my native app to the web using this technology and find it is some times even faster than native java/objective c (ironic)
- diebeforei485 5y ago
  See, this is hype. I don't find Figma (running in Chrome) to be as responsive as Illustrator or Pixelmator.
  - mattkevan 5y ago
    Figma is definitely not as responsive as a native app. The Figma Electron app with a large document open can bring my less-than-a-year-old MBP to its knees. Figma and Teams at the same time? Forget it. The same document in Sketch is fine.

Synaesthesia 5y ago

Safari is still the best mobile web browser in terms of performance and usability, and I'm using Firefox on Android, it's great, but Safari is the fastest.

paxys 5y ago
Considering there are no other browsers on iOS to compare to, Safari is obviously the fastest by default.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Jcowell 5y ago
  The OP is comparing to android browsers as well though.