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What things are considered "neurodiverse" and what things are considered mental illness? Genuine question. A case could be made that schizophrenia or psychopath

What things are considered "neurodiverse" and what things are considered mental illness? Genuine question. A case could be made that schizophrenia or psychopathy or any other condition is simply another example of diverse neural make-ups. Where is the line drawn? If there is no line, then Google would obviously still be making a call about which types of neurodiversity they want, and which they don't. Which puts us right back to square one anyway. This is just another way for them to fit the "Diversity" buzzword into marketing material.

64ffiitdd 5y ago
As an ADHD person I tend to be suspicious of progressive sounding ideas around things like neurodiversity because they usually get tied in with attitudes that culimate in telling me I shouldn't need my medication. Even amongst the academics I know it's very popular to argue I only need my meds because of x societal factor. I'd much rather not be forced to trust society and just have my medication to deal with the problem.
paul_f 5y ago
This is really difficult and quite a grey area. Just to make a point, is gender dysphoria an acceptable neural diversity, but bipolar affective disorder is not?
- octokatt 5y ago
  N=1, but I had my most successful group project ever with someone who was dealing with bipolar disorder. The solution? He was a master communicator. He would tell me when he was having a manic streak and took on more work. When he was going back down, he communicated that and I took on more. If he started going unresponsive, I reached out and asked, and he told me where he was and what support he needed. Now he's doing better and found the right medication, but crivens, I've been in a lot of other group projects, and I really miss him.
  - paul_f 5y ago
    This is a great story and I am happy for the outcome for sure.
  - ditonal 5y ago
    I’m sorry to be that guy, but the myth of bipolar people being super productive during mania needs to die and posts like yours reinforce it. Some bipolar type 2 people may be slightly more productive while hypomanic. For serious cases, mania is much, much more dangerous than depression and if someone tells you they’re manic you should rush them to the hospital, not give them more work.
armchairhacker 5y ago
There is no line. But unfortunately, I think Google only wants to hire people who they can accommodate easy (easy enough for the "diversity" points). Have awkward social skills and prefer working away from other people? If you're a good programmer Google won't care. Have trouble following any instructions whatsoever? You're probably out of luck. Honestly I think it would be nice for people with schizophrenia and more serious conditions to get employment. Even if it's hard to get them to actually contribute something, for their own self-worth. But I doubt companies like Google will do much for those people without an external incentive.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- titanomachy 5y ago
  I don't think it's just about diversity points. There's a real competitive advantage to building a workplace that can accommodate smart but different people. My impression is that despite the perception of Google as having a very progressive and liberal culture, they are actually pretty ruthlessly capitalist and won't go out of their way to accommodate people who are ultimately detrimental. They are just being open-minded about what kinds of people they can put to use.
  - nicbou 5y ago
    I agree on the smart but different line. When you serve the entire world, your average Google worker might miss a lot of important use cases. I've been the colourblind guy in meetings, sitting next to the guy with kids and the girl from a country without steady electricity, to name a few. Can I ask you if non-neurotyptical people would fit in this picture? Aside from being capable employees, are there perhaps moments when a non-neurotyptical person could chip in with design changes?
    - jckahn 5y ago
      (I’m Autistic) I think folks on the spectrum would have a particularly keen eye for spotting ambiguous UI design details and text copy. As a person particularly prone to information overload, it nudges me towards smaller and more modular code functions. We’re not superheroes or mutants, and everyone is different, but Autistic people can help to balance out designs in subtle ways because we are atypically balanced ourselves.
exporectomy 5y ago
There's no clear boundary but one criteria for some mental illnesses is that it causes problems for the person's life. So a high functioning autist could be perfectly healthy in a world without informal human interaction. Pedophilia is not a mental illness unless it gets you into trouble, then it is. I'd guess the reason for targeting autism is there would be a disproportionate number of highly capable workers hidden in that group which would be missed by normal hiring practices. You wouldn't expect that from, say, schizophrenia or most other neurodiversities.
MontyCarloHall 5y ago
The line is drawn at the point that someone's mental condition would negatively impact their coworkers. Someone slightly on the spectrum who's somewhat awkward in conversation but an otherwise great developer? Probably a pass, unless their conversational awkwardness makes communication difficult. Someone further on the spectrum who has a meltdown if their daily routine is even slightly disrupted? Probably not a pass, unless that routine never crosses the path of a coworker. Someone with untreated bipolar disorder who lashes out with little provocation at their coworkers? Fail. Someone with an IQ of 80 who's literally incapable of coding, and would thus be total dead weight on the team? Fail.
- nitrogen 5y ago
  Someone with an IQ of 80 who's literally incapable of coding? Fail. I actually worked with a developer who said their tested IQ was in the 80s.
  - ummwhat 5y ago
    So what language were they working in?
    - MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
      Well if my company is any indication, VBA.
  - chroma 5y ago
    I’m very skeptical that someone with an IQ of 80 could be employed as a software developer. I think other explanations are more likely. Your coworker could be joking or lying. He could be mistaken (eg: interpreting a percentile as an IQ score). The test could have been mis-graded. Or maybe he was just having a really bad day. If he took an IQ test again, I seriously doubt he’d get such a low result. A person with an IQ of 80 usually has trouble functioning in society. It can be difficult to teach them concepts like alphabetization or hypotheticals. For someone with such cognitive impairments to become a software developer beggars belief.
perl4ever 5y ago
If the test of a person being employable is that they keep their condition to themselves, then it's mental illness. You can't ask for accommodations for mental illness, is my definition. No matter what the rules on paper. Different workplaces have different tolerances for people who seem unstable; for instance, if someone bursts into tears, are they pressured out? It varies. Schizophrenia has nothing to do with psychopathy, sociopathy, multiple personalities, or anything you've seen in the movies, by the way.
- guerrilla 5y ago
  > You can't ask for accommodations for mental illness, is my definition. No idea what you're talking about because obviously you can.
  - perl4ever 5y ago
    I'm probably not in disagreement with you about any facts regarding mental illness and tolerance thereof in the workplace. It's more about definitions of words. I think it's useful to define mental illness as those conditions where you can't take advantage of your rights on paper; where the proof that you are coping adequately is always and forever that you are not sharing much if anything - mostly coping with symptoms while at work is not enough. Schizophrenia, bipolar, etc. It's very clearly shown in this thread why these are different from conditions people are free to talk about. Most people can't imagine that someone with the above conditions can be employable, especially as a knowledge worker, whereas Aspergers/autism has become a cliche used to stereotype programmers in general. There is no way to enforce a law that says people shall trust others regardless of their personal judgement. So there is no equalizing the privileges that some "neurodiverse" people have and others do not.

64ffiitdd 5y ago

As an ADHD person I tend to be suspicious of progressive sounding ideas around things like neurodiversity because they usually get tied in with attitudes that culimate in telling me I shouldn't need my medication. Even amongst the academics I know it's very popular to argue I only need my meds because of x societal factor. I'd much rather not be forced to trust society and just have my medication to deal with the problem.

paul_f 5y ago

This is really difficult and quite a grey area. Just to make a point, is gender dysphoria an acceptable neural diversity, but bipolar affective disorder is not?

octokatt 5y ago
N=1, but I had my most successful group project ever with someone who was dealing with bipolar disorder. The solution? He was a master communicator. He would tell me when he was having a manic streak and took on more work. When he was going back down, he communicated that and I took on more. If he started going unresponsive, I reached out and asked, and he told me where he was and what support he needed. Now he's doing better and found the right medication, but crivens, I've been in a lot of other group projects, and I really miss him.
- paul_f 5y ago
  This is a great story and I am happy for the outcome for sure.
- ditonal 5y ago
  I’m sorry to be that guy, but the myth of bipolar people being super productive during mania needs to die and posts like yours reinforce it. Some bipolar type 2 people may be slightly more productive while hypomanic. For serious cases, mania is much, much more dangerous than depression and if someone tells you they’re manic you should rush them to the hospital, not give them more work.

armchairhacker 5y ago

There is no line. But unfortunately, I think Google only wants to hire people who they can accommodate easy (easy enough for the "diversity" points). Have awkward social skills and prefer working away from other people? If you're a good programmer Google won't care. Have trouble following any instructions whatsoever? You're probably out of luck. Honestly I think it would be nice for people with schizophrenia and more serious conditions to get employment. Even if it's hard to get them to actually contribute something, for their own self-worth. But I doubt companies like Google will do much for those people without an external incentive.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
titanomachy 5y ago
I don't think it's just about diversity points. There's a real competitive advantage to building a workplace that can accommodate smart but different people. My impression is that despite the perception of Google as having a very progressive and liberal culture, they are actually pretty ruthlessly capitalist and won't go out of their way to accommodate people who are ultimately detrimental. They are just being open-minded about what kinds of people they can put to use.
- nicbou 5y ago
  I agree on the smart but different line. When you serve the entire world, your average Google worker might miss a lot of important use cases. I've been the colourblind guy in meetings, sitting next to the guy with kids and the girl from a country without steady electricity, to name a few. Can I ask you if non-neurotyptical people would fit in this picture? Aside from being capable employees, are there perhaps moments when a non-neurotyptical person could chip in with design changes?
  - jckahn 5y ago
    (I’m Autistic) I think folks on the spectrum would have a particularly keen eye for spotting ambiguous UI design details and text copy. As a person particularly prone to information overload, it nudges me towards smaller and more modular code functions. We’re not superheroes or mutants, and everyone is different, but Autistic people can help to balance out designs in subtle ways because we are atypically balanced ourselves.

exporectomy 5y ago

There's no clear boundary but one criteria for some mental illnesses is that it causes problems for the person's life. So a high functioning autist could be perfectly healthy in a world without informal human interaction. Pedophilia is not a mental illness unless it gets you into trouble, then it is. I'd guess the reason for targeting autism is there would be a disproportionate number of highly capable workers hidden in that group which would be missed by normal hiring practices. You wouldn't expect that from, say, schizophrenia or most other neurodiversities.

MontyCarloHall 5y ago

The line is drawn at the point that someone's mental condition would negatively impact their coworkers. Someone slightly on the spectrum who's somewhat awkward in conversation but an otherwise great developer? Probably a pass, unless their conversational awkwardness makes communication difficult. Someone further on the spectrum who has a meltdown if their daily routine is even slightly disrupted? Probably not a pass, unless that routine never crosses the path of a coworker. Someone with untreated bipolar disorder who lashes out with little provocation at their coworkers? Fail. Someone with an IQ of 80 who's literally incapable of coding, and would thus be total dead weight on the team? Fail.

nitrogen 5y ago
Someone with an IQ of 80 who's literally incapable of coding? Fail. I actually worked with a developer who said their tested IQ was in the 80s.
- ummwhat 5y ago
  So what language were they working in?
  - MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
    Well if my company is any indication, VBA.
- chroma 5y ago
  I’m very skeptical that someone with an IQ of 80 could be employed as a software developer. I think other explanations are more likely. Your coworker could be joking or lying. He could be mistaken (eg: interpreting a percentile as an IQ score). The test could have been mis-graded. Or maybe he was just having a really bad day. If he took an IQ test again, I seriously doubt he’d get such a low result. A person with an IQ of 80 usually has trouble functioning in society. It can be difficult to teach them concepts like alphabetization or hypotheticals. For someone with such cognitive impairments to become a software developer beggars belief.

perl4ever 5y ago

If the test of a person being employable is that they keep their condition to themselves, then it's mental illness. You can't ask for accommodations for mental illness, is my definition. No matter what the rules on paper. Different workplaces have different tolerances for people who seem unstable; for instance, if someone bursts into tears, are they pressured out? It varies. Schizophrenia has nothing to do with psychopathy, sociopathy, multiple personalities, or anything you've seen in the movies, by the way.

guerrilla 5y ago
> You can't ask for accommodations for mental illness, is my definition. No idea what you're talking about because obviously you can.
- perl4ever 5y ago
  I'm probably not in disagreement with you about any facts regarding mental illness and tolerance thereof in the workplace. It's more about definitions of words. I think it's useful to define mental illness as those conditions where you can't take advantage of your rights on paper; where the proof that you are coping adequately is always and forever that you are not sharing much if anything - mostly coping with symptoms while at work is not enough. Schizophrenia, bipolar, etc. It's very clearly shown in this thread why these are different from conditions people are free to talk about. Most people can't imagine that someone with the above conditions can be employable, especially as a knowledge worker, whereas Aspergers/autism has become a cliche used to stereotype programmers in general. There is no way to enforce a law that says people shall trust others regardless of their personal judgement. So there is no equalizing the privileges that some "neurodiverse" people have and others do not.