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No, you really can't. In order to make high-pressure hydrogen tanks in passenger vehicles safe in crashes they are embedded deeply inside the chassis and are m

No, you really can't. In order to make high-pressure hydrogen tanks in passenger vehicles safe in crashes they are embedded deeply inside the chassis and are much bigger and more difficult to access than you seem to be thinking. There is absolutely no way to swap the tank on a Toyota Mirai, for example, without taking the car mostly apart. Take a look at [1] to see where the tanks are actually placed. [1] https://www.thedrive.com/news/37872/now-with-three-hydrogen-tanks-the-2021-toyota-mirai-gets-a-400-mile-range https://www.thedrive.com/news/37872/now-with-three-hydrogen-...

Clubber 5y ago
Why couldn't you put an access panel right next to them, or even a slide out tray? They both seem to be near the outside of the car in that diagram.
- outworlder 5y ago
  Hydrogen is already terrible enough as it is to contain. So now you want to add a bunch of connect/disconnect cycles to a high pressure tank?!
  - Clubber 5y ago
    I mean we've known how to store flammable gas for quite a while now. Welding tanks, oxygen tanks, propane tanks. Why would it be different from swapping out a propane tank in my gas grill? I mean don't EV's have issues? Lithium is expensive to mine, electricity is usually produced by burning coal, and can our current grid even handle 100% electric vehicles? I mean it's better than gas, but it's not the end of the road of vehicle power is it?
    - com2kid 5y ago
      Pressurized explosive gases are dangerous. Your propane task isn't part of a multi-ton vehicle traveling at high speeds that may be subject to a high speed crash at any random point in time. A hydrogen tank that is part of your car, however, may be subject to a high speed crash coming in at a random angle. BBQ grill propane tanks can explode, but they are typically stored on porches, an environment where they are not often hit by SUVs.
      - Clubber 5y ago
        >Pressurized explosive gases are dangerous. So are lithium ion batteries. Here's an article on a recent Tesla burn: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/01/tesla-model-s-plaid-caught-fire-while-being-driven-fire-chief.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/01/tesla-model-s-plaid-caught-f... I wasn't arguing that hydrogen wasn't dangerous, I was arguing that a hydrogen tank was easier to swap than a 1200 lb. battery.
    - outworlder 5y ago
      > Why would it be different from swapping out a propane tank in my gas grill? Because we are not talking about propane. We are talking about a tank storing highly pressurized hydrogen, which is way more difficult to handle than propane. In a moving vehicle, not a grill. > Lithium is expensive to mine Yes. It can be mined once and then reuse countless times, however. Hydrogen is expensive to manufacture too, and it's "burned" so you always need more. Expect prices to go down as more infrastructure to mine and refine is put into place. This is even ignoring technological advancements in extraction - which tend to happen once there's demand. > electricity is usually produced by burning coal This is highly location-dependent. True for some places, not true at all for others. That's also becoming less true by the day. _Even_ in the case where 100% of the grid power worldwide came from coal, EVs would still be a win. The generator on a huge power plant is far more efficient than any car engine. And the pollution is concentrated on a few places - places we can improve. Additionally, there are no emissions on population centers, meaning an enormous improvement on quality of life and a decrease on deaths due to respiratory illnesses. Then, once you upgrade the power plants, the entire vehicle fleet gets an instant upgrade. If it's in your means (essentially, if you own your property) you can generate power from renewables on site and power your vehicle that way. Try doing that with hydrogen. > and can our current grid even handle 100% electric vehicles Yes according to the US Department of Energy. > I mean it's better than gas, but it's not the end of the road of vehicle power is it Just until we find something better, then we'll _easily_ change our vehicles to store electric energy using the new storage device. That's the good thing about electric motors, they don't care where the power comes from.
      - robocat 5y ago
        >> electricity is usually produced by burning coal > This is highly location-dependent. It really isn’t. Electricity moves through a network: for example using more electricity in France might cause a coal power station to be started in Poland. The same occurs for any network. Additionally, when you add an EXTRA kWh of load, what really matters is where that extra kWh is generated. Think of it that all the electricity on the network is already being used (all the green electricity is virtually guaranteed to be used). When you add one marginal kWh of usage, that kWh is often genersted 100% from gas or coal. Obviously there are a lot of different situations where the above points are not relevant, and where an efficient coal station might be better than an ICE. I am just saying that many people are ignorant of how the electricity networks work.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - chmod600 5y ago
      Propane is a vastly different substance with different properties. I'm not sure why you are so insistent that they should be similar. Sure, EVs and hydrogen each have their pros and cons. But that is meaningless without numbers. So far, it seems like the numbers work out a lot better for EVs. Maybe someone comes up with a great idea and hydrogen becomes the future of cars. But there is zero evidence of that today.
      - Clubber 5y ago
        >I'm not sure why you are so insistent that they should be similar. I'm not insistent, I'm just asking why it's not possible or practical to swap out a hydrogen tank in a vehicle. I guess that's heretical. Here's a company that sells tanks. You can use it for welding among other things. There's one in just about every city. https://www.airgas.com/resources/gases101/hydrogen https://www.airgas.com/resources/gases101/hydrogen Fork lifts currently use them too. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/21/musk-calls-hydrogen-fuel-cells-stupid-but-tech-may-threaten-tesla.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/21/musk-calls-hydrogen-fuel-cel...
    - stevenhuang 5y ago
      Storing pressurized hydrogen safely & efficiently is much harder to do than storing propane. Pressure for propane tanks, 100-200 psi. Pressure for hydrogen tanks, 5000-10000 psi. It's not the same.
      - hoseja 5y ago
        Also, hydrogen has the funny habit of being much smaller molecule and diffusing through solids.
    - N1H1L 5y ago
      The answer is also because hydrogen is insanely light. A propane molecule is much bigger in size than a H2 molecule - which makes hydrogen storage and handling uniquely difficult

Clubber 5y ago

Why couldn't you put an access panel right next to them, or even a slide out tray? They both seem to be near the outside of the car in that diagram.

outworlder 5y ago
Hydrogen is already terrible enough as it is to contain. So now you want to add a bunch of connect/disconnect cycles to a high pressure tank?!
- Clubber 5y ago
  I mean we've known how to store flammable gas for quite a while now. Welding tanks, oxygen tanks, propane tanks. Why would it be different from swapping out a propane tank in my gas grill? I mean don't EV's have issues? Lithium is expensive to mine, electricity is usually produced by burning coal, and can our current grid even handle 100% electric vehicles? I mean it's better than gas, but it's not the end of the road of vehicle power is it?
  - com2kid 5y ago
    Pressurized explosive gases are dangerous. Your propane task isn't part of a multi-ton vehicle traveling at high speeds that may be subject to a high speed crash at any random point in time. A hydrogen tank that is part of your car, however, may be subject to a high speed crash coming in at a random angle. BBQ grill propane tanks can explode, but they are typically stored on porches, an environment where they are not often hit by SUVs.
    - Clubber 5y ago
      >Pressurized explosive gases are dangerous. So are lithium ion batteries. Here's an article on a recent Tesla burn: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/01/tesla-model-s-plaid-caught-fire-while-being-driven-fire-chief.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/01/tesla-model-s-plaid-caught-f... I wasn't arguing that hydrogen wasn't dangerous, I was arguing that a hydrogen tank was easier to swap than a 1200 lb. battery.
  - outworlder 5y ago
    > Why would it be different from swapping out a propane tank in my gas grill? Because we are not talking about propane. We are talking about a tank storing highly pressurized hydrogen, which is way more difficult to handle than propane. In a moving vehicle, not a grill. > Lithium is expensive to mine Yes. It can be mined once and then reuse countless times, however. Hydrogen is expensive to manufacture too, and it's "burned" so you always need more. Expect prices to go down as more infrastructure to mine and refine is put into place. This is even ignoring technological advancements in extraction - which tend to happen once there's demand. > electricity is usually produced by burning coal This is highly location-dependent. True for some places, not true at all for others. That's also becoming less true by the day. _Even_ in the case where 100% of the grid power worldwide came from coal, EVs would still be a win. The generator on a huge power plant is far more efficient than any car engine. And the pollution is concentrated on a few places - places we can improve. Additionally, there are no emissions on population centers, meaning an enormous improvement on quality of life and a decrease on deaths due to respiratory illnesses. Then, once you upgrade the power plants, the entire vehicle fleet gets an instant upgrade. If it's in your means (essentially, if you own your property) you can generate power from renewables on site and power your vehicle that way. Try doing that with hydrogen. > and can our current grid even handle 100% electric vehicles Yes according to the US Department of Energy. > I mean it's better than gas, but it's not the end of the road of vehicle power is it Just until we find something better, then we'll _easily_ change our vehicles to store electric energy using the new storage device. That's the good thing about electric motors, they don't care where the power comes from.
    - robocat 5y ago
      >> electricity is usually produced by burning coal > This is highly location-dependent. It really isn’t. Electricity moves through a network: for example using more electricity in France might cause a coal power station to be started in Poland. The same occurs for any network. Additionally, when you add an EXTRA kWh of load, what really matters is where that extra kWh is generated. Think of it that all the electricity on the network is already being used (all the green electricity is virtually guaranteed to be used). When you add one marginal kWh of usage, that kWh is often genersted 100% from gas or coal. Obviously there are a lot of different situations where the above points are not relevant, and where an efficient coal station might be better than an ICE. I am just saying that many people are ignorant of how the electricity networks work.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - chmod600 5y ago
    Propane is a vastly different substance with different properties. I'm not sure why you are so insistent that they should be similar. Sure, EVs and hydrogen each have their pros and cons. But that is meaningless without numbers. So far, it seems like the numbers work out a lot better for EVs. Maybe someone comes up with a great idea and hydrogen becomes the future of cars. But there is zero evidence of that today.
    - Clubber 5y ago
      >I'm not sure why you are so insistent that they should be similar. I'm not insistent, I'm just asking why it's not possible or practical to swap out a hydrogen tank in a vehicle. I guess that's heretical. Here's a company that sells tanks. You can use it for welding among other things. There's one in just about every city. https://www.airgas.com/resources/gases101/hydrogen https://www.airgas.com/resources/gases101/hydrogen Fork lifts currently use them too. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/21/musk-calls-hydrogen-fuel-cells-stupid-but-tech-may-threaten-tesla.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/21/musk-calls-hydrogen-fuel-cel...
  - stevenhuang 5y ago
    Storing pressurized hydrogen safely & efficiently is much harder to do than storing propane. Pressure for propane tanks, 100-200 psi. Pressure for hydrogen tanks, 5000-10000 psi. It's not the same.
    - hoseja 5y ago
      Also, hydrogen has the funny habit of being much smaller molecule and diffusing through solids.
  - N1H1L 5y ago
    The answer is also because hydrogen is insanely light. A propane molecule is much bigger in size than a H2 molecule - which makes hydrogen storage and handling uniquely difficult