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The problem with fuel cell vehicles is they still need batteries. Not as big of a battery, but they still a battery of some kind because the fuel cell can't del

The problem with fuel cell vehicles is they still need batteries. Not as big of a battery, but they still a battery of some kind because the fuel cell can't deliver burstable power the way a battery can. So the FCV is really the worst of all possible worlds - all the complexity of a fuel cell, plus all the rare earth needs of a BEV. I also can't believe that the production and distribution network for hydrogen could be anywhere near as efficient as direct distribution of electrons. This whole idea seems like a nation-scale Rube Goldberg machine.

Hypx_ 5y ago
There's a world of difference between a 1.5 kWh battery and an 80 kWh battery.
- mullingitover 5y ago
  Yes, I imagine the 1.5kWh will deliver pretty sluggish performance, but it'll be in a car that costs more than a BEV, with less reliability and with even worse range anxiety.
  - Hypx_ 5y ago
    Nothing you said is true.
    - mullingitover 5y ago
      Here's where things stand right now: 2021 Toyota Mirai: 0-60 in 9.2 seconds $49,500 43 publicly available hydrogen stations in the US 2020 Bolt EV: 0-60 in 6.3 seconds $33,000 41,400 EV charging stations in the US (and charging at home is easy) If you're going to claim that an FCEV is more reliable in spite of the extreme differences in mechanical complexity, I'm all ears and would love to see some cites for that. BEVs are getting cheaper faster than FCVs, FCVs don't have a prayer of ever competing with BEVs on performance, and there are ~1000x public EV charging stations compared to hydrogen stations.
      - Hypx_ 5y ago
        Hydrogen supercars and race cars exist. It's matter of having a high enough discharge rate battery or a supercapacitor. It's a completely pointless argument to bring up. Hydrogen buses are already cheaper to operate than battery buses and are more reliable: https://cafcp.org/sites/default/files/07-24-2020-Foothill-ZEB-Update-to-Board.pdf https://cafcp.org/sites/default/files/07-24-2020-Foothill-ZE... Real world testing has already proven you wrong.
        mullingitover 5y ago
        > Hydrogen supercars and race cars exist Yes, there are some prototypes that get close to the performance of a decently-spec'd Tesla Model 3. > Hydrogen buses are already cheaper to operate than battery buses There are some serious gymnastics going on with the math in that paper. The paper shows FCEV buses cost 3x the maintenance per mile and cost ~30% more per mile for the fuel. A lot of that price difference rides on the assumption that batteries will never go down in price, which is pretty debatable.
        Hypx_ 5y ago
        Even though they'd easily run circles around a Model 3, this admission still proves my point. Almost as much gymnastics as you're using here. Maintenance and fuel costs will drop for FCEVs too. Right now, battery buses are more expensive. More importantly, you can get away with much fewer buses and a smaller refueling footprint since each fuel cell bus has significantly more range and shorter refueling times.
        mullingitover 5y ago
        > Even though they'd easily run circles around a Model 3, this admission still proves my point. Err, no, the Model 3 Performance (which is a real car you can buy right now) does 0-60 in 3.1 seconds. The Forze VIII[1] isn't that fast (they quote "< 4 seconds"), and the Forze IX might be faster but doesn't exist yet. No circles are being run, at best the fastest operating FCEV I've been able to find might be able to keep up with a production family sedan BEV. If we're comparing cars in development, the Tesla Roadster is quoted as being able to do 0-60 in 1.1 seconds. [1] https://forze-delft.nl/milestones/forze-viii/ https://forze-delft.nl/milestones/forze-viii/

Hypx_ 5y ago

There's a world of difference between a 1.5 kWh battery and an 80 kWh battery.

mullingitover 5y ago
Yes, I imagine the 1.5kWh will deliver pretty sluggish performance, but it'll be in a car that costs more than a BEV, with less reliability and with even worse range anxiety.
- Hypx_ 5y ago
  Nothing you said is true.
  - mullingitover 5y ago
    Here's where things stand right now: 2021 Toyota Mirai: 0-60 in 9.2 seconds $49,500 43 publicly available hydrogen stations in the US 2020 Bolt EV: 0-60 in 6.3 seconds $33,000 41,400 EV charging stations in the US (and charging at home is easy) If you're going to claim that an FCEV is more reliable in spite of the extreme differences in mechanical complexity, I'm all ears and would love to see some cites for that. BEVs are getting cheaper faster than FCVs, FCVs don't have a prayer of ever competing with BEVs on performance, and there are ~1000x public EV charging stations compared to hydrogen stations.
    - Hypx_ 5y ago
      Hydrogen supercars and race cars exist. It's matter of having a high enough discharge rate battery or a supercapacitor. It's a completely pointless argument to bring up. Hydrogen buses are already cheaper to operate than battery buses and are more reliable: https://cafcp.org/sites/default/files/07-24-2020-Foothill-ZEB-Update-to-Board.pdf https://cafcp.org/sites/default/files/07-24-2020-Foothill-ZE... Real world testing has already proven you wrong.
      - mullingitover 5y ago
        > Hydrogen supercars and race cars exist Yes, there are some prototypes that get close to the performance of a decently-spec'd Tesla Model 3. > Hydrogen buses are already cheaper to operate than battery buses There are some serious gymnastics going on with the math in that paper. The paper shows FCEV buses cost 3x the maintenance per mile and cost ~30% more per mile for the fuel. A lot of that price difference rides on the assumption that batteries will never go down in price, which is pretty debatable.
        Hypx_ 5y ago
        Even though they'd easily run circles around a Model 3, this admission still proves my point. Almost as much gymnastics as you're using here. Maintenance and fuel costs will drop for FCEVs too. Right now, battery buses are more expensive. More importantly, you can get away with much fewer buses and a smaller refueling footprint since each fuel cell bus has significantly more range and shorter refueling times.
        mullingitover 5y ago
        > Even though they'd easily run circles around a Model 3, this admission still proves my point. Err, no, the Model 3 Performance (which is a real car you can buy right now) does 0-60 in 3.1 seconds. The Forze VIII[1] isn't that fast (they quote "< 4 seconds"), and the Forze IX might be faster but doesn't exist yet. No circles are being run, at best the fastest operating FCEV I've been able to find might be able to keep up with a production family sedan BEV. If we're comparing cars in development, the Tesla Roadster is quoted as being able to do 0-60 in 1.1 seconds. [1] https://forze-delft.nl/milestones/forze-viii/ https://forze-delft.nl/milestones/forze-viii/