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Yeah, it's a really useful tool. There are a lot of gunshots in Chicago (last year there were over 4000 incidents (in Chicago) where someone was shot, and there

Yeah, it's a really useful tool. There are a lot of gunshots in Chicago (last year there were over 4000 incidents (in Chicago) where someone was shot, and there are far more gunshots where no one is hit), and in many of those shootings, no one calls 911. If someone is hit and rendered unable to call 911 or get help, if no one calls 911, that shooting victims is likely to become a homicide victim. ShotSpotter gets someone to check the area out, and it has saved a number of people from bleeding out. I don't think it should be used as evidence of the location of a shooting (often shootings are only discovered when the victim shows up at a hospital), as locations are triangulated based on the time different sensors detect a gunshot and the distance sound travels is impacted by building geometry and materials. But it's a very useful tool that saves lives. Regarding the locations of ShotSpotter coverage, as the pricing model is proportional to area covered (there's a physical network that needs to be maintained and contacts with owners of buildings with sensors that need to be paid), so sensors are put in the areas with lots of shootings. If you want to know why there is such extreme racial homogeneity in the most violent, least well resourced parts of Chicago, I highly recommend the book "The Color of Law" [0] on redlining. [0] https://www.epi.org/publication/the-color-of-law-a-forgotten-history-of-how-our-government-segregated-america/ https://www.epi.org/publication/the-color-of-law-a-forgotten...

loteck 5y ago
Do you have any citations for your claims about the Chicago system being responsible for saving a number of people? I'm looking for reading on that topic. Thanks ahead of time.
- modriano 5y ago
  None that are public (that I'm aware of), but it's just a matter of time. We just got ShotSpotter alerts put up on the Chicago data portal. But to make it less difficult to believe, I'll point you too LEMART training [1], an emergency first aid course that many patrol officers elect to take, and that many officers carry a first aid kit [2]. Considering ShotSpotter alerts officers (many of which are capable of administering emergency first aid) to shootings (many of which have no corresponding 911 call for service), it's not too hard to accept the weak claim that a nonzero number of lives have been saved. I won't speculate on the number as I haven't done a rigorous analysis, but I know of a lot of shootings where the responding officer was notified by ShotSpotter, administered first aid (normally a tourniquet), and the victim survived. Edit: just found a public number for the number of officers who have received LEMART training. Over 6000 officers as of 1/21/2020 [3]. For reference, there are about 13k sworn CPD officers. [0] https://data.cityofchicago.org/Public-Safety/Violence-Reduction-Shotspotter-Alerts/3h7q-7mdb https://data.cityofchicago.org/Public-Safety/Violence-Reduct... [1] https://www.chicagocopa.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Policy-Report-re-First-Aid-Policy-Training-Equipment.pdf https://www.chicagocopa.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Polic... [2] https://directives.crimeisdown.com/diff/efaff1a7e94a8ad642c793993e0d6701c1d276fd/directives/data/a7a57b38-1488e40c-5eb14-88e6-c8b737ad46ecc09a.html https://directives.crimeisdown.com/diff/efaff1a7e94a8ad642c7... [3] https://twitter.com/chicago_police/status/1219747858469003265 https://twitter.com/chicago_police/status/121974785846900326...
giantg2 5y ago
"... and in many of those shootings, no one calls 911." It's sad that our society (can we really call it that?) has come to this - relying more on a piece of technology because you can't depend on your fellow citizens.
- mrkurt 5y ago
  There's no point in calling the police when you hear a gunshot anywhere near Chicago. For one, you probably heard fireworks. For another, calling them doesn't accomplish anything. What are they even supposed to do about random gun shots?
  - giantg2 5y ago
    I'm not asking about shots off in the distance. With the population densities of cities, people should be close enough to know. Discharging a firearm is a crime in most cities, with limited defenses. They should be collecting evidence like shell casings and investigating if another crime was committed (check for victims). If you have people illegally shooting firearms, there's a decent chance they arent legally allowed to own them either. Catching these people for this crime, could prevent others.
_trampeltier 5y ago
Maybe the US should try to sell less weapons ..
- sneak 5y ago
  Being unarmed in the current environment is not advisable.
fencepost 5y ago
Before defending it too strongly, take a look at their article on where the pickups are being placed [0] and in the section on Chicago zoom in on the map. It's ASTONISHING how well it lines up with the demographics. Looking through on the map, it looks like the census blocks with both ShotSpotter and >=50% white are one in CA-17 (Dunning), two in CA-60 (Bridgeport), two in CA-61 (New City), five in CA-41 (Hyde Park, University of Chicago area), five in CA-56 (Garfield Ridge) and four in CA-64 (Clearing). Those last 9 census blocks are part of a little largely-white enclave around and to the west of Midway airport and just north of the rail yards. (CA refers to Community Areas in Chicago, see [1]) I think it's notable that there are a total of 19 majority-white areas in the city with ShotSpotter tech - not with widespread installations, areas that have them at all. If you want to shoot someone in Chicago and not have it picked up by these devices, just head to Lincoln Park - looks like it's a couple miles from there to the nearest audio pickup. [0] https://www.vice.com/en/article/88nd3z/gunshot-detecting-tech-is-summoning-armed-police-to-black-neighborhoods https://www.vice.com/en/article/88nd3z/gunshot-detecting-tec... - don't forget to click the "visible layers" button and turn on the "gun crime" locations layer as well. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_areas_in_Chicago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_areas_in_Chicago
michaelmrose 5y ago
Seems like most of the benefit could trivially be kept without much of the downside if we simply made in inadmissible as evidence which seems to be advisable as the system is designed to allow a human to rewrite history as part of normal operations. It seems irredeemably broken for evidentiary purposes nor would it be reasonable to ever in the future trust the work of any company who would so arrange matters. All parties involved ought in present matter down to peons if they were aware of it and didn't come forward should go to jail.

loteck 5y ago

Do you have any citations for your claims about the Chicago system being responsible for saving a number of people? I'm looking for reading on that topic. Thanks ahead of time.

modriano 5y ago
None that are public (that I'm aware of), but it's just a matter of time. We just got ShotSpotter alerts put up on the Chicago data portal. But to make it less difficult to believe, I'll point you too LEMART training [1], an emergency first aid course that many patrol officers elect to take, and that many officers carry a first aid kit [2]. Considering ShotSpotter alerts officers (many of which are capable of administering emergency first aid) to shootings (many of which have no corresponding 911 call for service), it's not too hard to accept the weak claim that a nonzero number of lives have been saved. I won't speculate on the number as I haven't done a rigorous analysis, but I know of a lot of shootings where the responding officer was notified by ShotSpotter, administered first aid (normally a tourniquet), and the victim survived. Edit: just found a public number for the number of officers who have received LEMART training. Over 6000 officers as of 1/21/2020 [3]. For reference, there are about 13k sworn CPD officers. [0] https://data.cityofchicago.org/Public-Safety/Violence-Reduction-Shotspotter-Alerts/3h7q-7mdb https://data.cityofchicago.org/Public-Safety/Violence-Reduct... [1] https://www.chicagocopa.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Policy-Report-re-First-Aid-Policy-Training-Equipment.pdf https://www.chicagocopa.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Polic... [2] https://directives.crimeisdown.com/diff/efaff1a7e94a8ad642c793993e0d6701c1d276fd/directives/data/a7a57b38-1488e40c-5eb14-88e6-c8b737ad46ecc09a.html https://directives.crimeisdown.com/diff/efaff1a7e94a8ad642c7... [3] https://twitter.com/chicago_police/status/1219747858469003265 https://twitter.com/chicago_police/status/121974785846900326...

giantg2 5y ago

"... and in many of those shootings, no one calls 911." It's sad that our society (can we really call it that?) has come to this - relying more on a piece of technology because you can't depend on your fellow citizens.

mrkurt 5y ago
There's no point in calling the police when you hear a gunshot anywhere near Chicago. For one, you probably heard fireworks. For another, calling them doesn't accomplish anything. What are they even supposed to do about random gun shots?
- giantg2 5y ago
  I'm not asking about shots off in the distance. With the population densities of cities, people should be close enough to know. Discharging a firearm is a crime in most cities, with limited defenses. They should be collecting evidence like shell casings and investigating if another crime was committed (check for victims). If you have people illegally shooting firearms, there's a decent chance they arent legally allowed to own them either. Catching these people for this crime, could prevent others.

_trampeltier 5y ago

Maybe the US should try to sell less weapons ..

sneak 5y ago
Being unarmed in the current environment is not advisable.

fencepost 5y ago

Before defending it too strongly, take a look at their article on where the pickups are being placed [0] and in the section on Chicago zoom in on the map. It's ASTONISHING how well it lines up with the demographics. Looking through on the map, it looks like the census blocks with both ShotSpotter and >=50% white are one in CA-17 (Dunning), two in CA-60 (Bridgeport), two in CA-61 (New City), five in CA-41 (Hyde Park, University of Chicago area), five in CA-56 (Garfield Ridge) and four in CA-64 (Clearing). Those last 9 census blocks are part of a little largely-white enclave around and to the west of Midway airport and just north of the rail yards. (CA refers to Community Areas in Chicago, see [1]) I think it's notable that there are a total of 19 majority-white areas in the city with ShotSpotter tech - not with widespread installations, areas that have them at all. If you want to shoot someone in Chicago and not have it picked up by these devices, just head to Lincoln Park - looks like it's a couple miles from there to the nearest audio pickup. [0] https://www.vice.com/en/article/88nd3z/gunshot-detecting-tech-is-summoning-armed-police-to-black-neighborhoods https://www.vice.com/en/article/88nd3z/gunshot-detecting-tec... - don't forget to click the "visible layers" button and turn on the "gun crime" locations layer as well. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_areas_in_Chicago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_areas_in_Chicago

michaelmrose 5y ago

Seems like most of the benefit could trivially be kept without much of the downside if we simply made in inadmissible as evidence which seems to be advisable as the system is designed to allow a human to rewrite history as part of normal operations. It seems irredeemably broken for evidentiary purposes nor would it be reasonable to ever in the future trust the work of any company who would so arrange matters. All parties involved ought in present matter down to peons if they were aware of it and didn't come forward should go to jail.