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We should look at countries like Australia, they are among the worst with no reason to be. China has a still growing economy and while they continue to bring co

We should look at countries like Australia, they are among the worst with no reason to be. China has a still growing economy and while they continue to bring coal online they are the world's leading solar producer and have heavy investment into bringing more nuclear online. Contrast this with Australia that is a fully developed economy, has the easiest location to install and generate solar, has tons of uranium in the ground that it doesn't have a single reactor to use, and still burns and ships coal to act as an enabler to other coal burning nations.

908B64B197 5y ago
> they are the world's leading solar producer and have heavy investment into bringing more nuclear online. And yet their emissions are growing at an out of control pace [0]. [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/26/us-leads-greenhouse-gas-emissions-on-a-per-capita-basis-report-finds.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/26/us-leads-greenhouse-gas-emis...
- justicezyx 5y ago
  It's leveling off. And it's still well below Japan in per capita emission. Japan is quite an advanced green economy. I don't think any reason to put China front and center in this discussion "who should start closing coal power plant". Edit: > Focusing on per-capita data inevitably leads to whataboutism Well, energy usage is a key indicator of human wellbeing. I see no reason this leads to whataboutism. It's a key part of the discussion. Without this, humans are not going to unit in full strength. > that's exactly the narrative the CCP wants to push! CCP lifted 600MM+ people out of poverty. I guess they can make a few correct statement, right? > But when looking at emissions over time, it becomes pretty obvious that some countries are working hard doing their parts while some others are simply polluting at an accelerating pace. Yes, we can clearly see that China committed to carbon neutral at the critical juncture of economy development [1], and the only large developing country. And we are waiting India [2]. Meanwhile, despite enjoying the most from the carbon emission industry in 20 century, the advanced & developed country continuously insist on equal responsibility for all nations. It's like I eat most of the lunch, and grow so big, now I say that everyone on the table should cut their food consumption by certain percentage... Not fair. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2021/03/08/chinas-carbon-neutral-opportunity-economic-growth-driven-by-ambitious-climate-action/?sh=4cb8b80e734d https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2021/03/08/chi... [2] https://www.downtoearth.org.in/blog/climate-change/is-india-in-a-position-to-announce-a-target-of-net-zero-emissions-by-2050--76377#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20third%20Biennial,reduce%20the%20emission%20intensity%20of https://www.downtoearth.org.in/blog/climate-change/is-india-...
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    > And it's still well below Japan in per capita emission For how long? > I don't think any reason to put China front and center in this discussion "who should start closing coal power plant". Focusing on per-capita data inevitably leads to whataboutism, and that's exactly the narrative the CCP wants to push! But when looking at emissions over time, it becomes pretty obvious that some countries are working hard doing their parts while some others are simply polluting at an accelerating pace.
  - joecool1029 5y ago
    >And it's still well below Japan in per capita emission. I upvoted you but I didn't dunk on Japan because they do have nuclear energy and are a resource poor nation. They are also the only nation to have legitimate concerns over nuclear technology for reasons I shouldn't have to explain. >Meanwhile, despite enjoying the most from the carbon emission industry in 20 century, the advanced & developed country continuously insist on equal responsibility for all nations. This is the core point! I'm making the case that there's a reason they are emitting lots of carbon right now, and unlike many other nations that don't have a reason nor a plan to get off carbon, they do have one. China was practically an agrarian society up until the 1980's, the west squandered a 200 year carbon-burning head start and is painting them as the bad guys.
- joecool1029 5y ago
  Sure, but China doesn't appear to be short-sighted. In 10 years will this be the case? Nuclear takes a long time to bring online, they've at least got the process in motion and reasons to be polluting right now. Polluters like Australia don't and that's my point. Or maybe it'd be better that China stops producing renewable technologies for the rest of the world? One big area I see them improving is with use of electric vehicles. Can't do EV's if your grid can't supply the energy. Should they push gas and diesel vehicles instead for the next decade or two?
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    > Or maybe it'd be better that China stops producing renewable technologies for the rest of the world? I don't understand the dichotomy here. Is the argument that China's production of solar panels is a primary driver of China's pollution and thus cutting pollution in China would significantly hamper their ability to produce PV for the world? That seems dubious to me if I understand it correctly?
    - joecool1029 5y ago
      >I don't understand the dichotomy here. Let's make it easy then: Without coal as a large % of base load they'd have to shut down a good amount of their manufacturing and focus on putting less EV's on the road until they could replace the base load lost from shutting off all their coal production. China is #10 on the list of natural gas reserves, far below what the US or Russia has. At their current consumption they are anticipated to run out in a little over 20 years. I do not think it is a viable strategy to throw tons of natural gas online and rely on Russia when it runs out. Literally nothing the Chinese do with energy policy right now will appease the west. If they put in more hydro for wind/PV storage western press would print headlines about how the big bad CCP flooded over some villages and are destroying their environment.
      - krrrh 5y ago
        > Literally nothing the Chinese do with energy policy right now will appease the west. Serious development and commercialization of small modular nuclear reactors as an alternative to coal would probably do the trick.
likeabbas 5y ago
It would be more beneficial to the world to reign in the heaviest polluters first and then go after the remaining polluters.
albatross13 5y ago
> China has a still growing economy No matter how many UN councils vote to agree on this, we both know it's not true.

908B64B197 5y ago

> they are the world's leading solar producer and have heavy investment into bringing more nuclear online. And yet their emissions are growing at an out of control pace [0]. [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/26/us-leads-greenhouse-gas-emissions-on-a-per-capita-basis-report-finds.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/26/us-leads-greenhouse-gas-emis...

justicezyx 5y ago
It's leveling off. And it's still well below Japan in per capita emission. Japan is quite an advanced green economy. I don't think any reason to put China front and center in this discussion "who should start closing coal power plant". Edit: > Focusing on per-capita data inevitably leads to whataboutism Well, energy usage is a key indicator of human wellbeing. I see no reason this leads to whataboutism. It's a key part of the discussion. Without this, humans are not going to unit in full strength. > that's exactly the narrative the CCP wants to push! CCP lifted 600MM+ people out of poverty. I guess they can make a few correct statement, right? > But when looking at emissions over time, it becomes pretty obvious that some countries are working hard doing their parts while some others are simply polluting at an accelerating pace. Yes, we can clearly see that China committed to carbon neutral at the critical juncture of economy development [1], and the only large developing country. And we are waiting India [2]. Meanwhile, despite enjoying the most from the carbon emission industry in 20 century, the advanced & developed country continuously insist on equal responsibility for all nations. It's like I eat most of the lunch, and grow so big, now I say that everyone on the table should cut their food consumption by certain percentage... Not fair. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2021/03/08/chinas-carbon-neutral-opportunity-economic-growth-driven-by-ambitious-climate-action/?sh=4cb8b80e734d https://www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2021/03/08/chi... [2] https://www.downtoearth.org.in/blog/climate-change/is-india-in-a-position-to-announce-a-target-of-net-zero-emissions-by-2050--76377#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20third%20Biennial,reduce%20the%20emission%20intensity%20of https://www.downtoearth.org.in/blog/climate-change/is-india-...
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > And it's still well below Japan in per capita emission For how long? > I don't think any reason to put China front and center in this discussion "who should start closing coal power plant". Focusing on per-capita data inevitably leads to whataboutism, and that's exactly the narrative the CCP wants to push! But when looking at emissions over time, it becomes pretty obvious that some countries are working hard doing their parts while some others are simply polluting at an accelerating pace.
- joecool1029 5y ago
  >And it's still well below Japan in per capita emission. I upvoted you but I didn't dunk on Japan because they do have nuclear energy and are a resource poor nation. They are also the only nation to have legitimate concerns over nuclear technology for reasons I shouldn't have to explain. >Meanwhile, despite enjoying the most from the carbon emission industry in 20 century, the advanced & developed country continuously insist on equal responsibility for all nations. This is the core point! I'm making the case that there's a reason they are emitting lots of carbon right now, and unlike many other nations that don't have a reason nor a plan to get off carbon, they do have one. China was practically an agrarian society up until the 1980's, the west squandered a 200 year carbon-burning head start and is painting them as the bad guys.
joecool1029 5y ago
Sure, but China doesn't appear to be short-sighted. In 10 years will this be the case? Nuclear takes a long time to bring online, they've at least got the process in motion and reasons to be polluting right now. Polluters like Australia don't and that's my point. Or maybe it'd be better that China stops producing renewable technologies for the rest of the world? One big area I see them improving is with use of electric vehicles. Can't do EV's if your grid can't supply the energy. Should they push gas and diesel vehicles instead for the next decade or two?
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  > Or maybe it'd be better that China stops producing renewable technologies for the rest of the world? I don't understand the dichotomy here. Is the argument that China's production of solar panels is a primary driver of China's pollution and thus cutting pollution in China would significantly hamper their ability to produce PV for the world? That seems dubious to me if I understand it correctly?
  - joecool1029 5y ago
    >I don't understand the dichotomy here. Let's make it easy then: Without coal as a large % of base load they'd have to shut down a good amount of their manufacturing and focus on putting less EV's on the road until they could replace the base load lost from shutting off all their coal production. China is #10 on the list of natural gas reserves, far below what the US or Russia has. At their current consumption they are anticipated to run out in a little over 20 years. I do not think it is a viable strategy to throw tons of natural gas online and rely on Russia when it runs out. Literally nothing the Chinese do with energy policy right now will appease the west. If they put in more hydro for wind/PV storage western press would print headlines about how the big bad CCP flooded over some villages and are destroying their environment.
    - krrrh 5y ago
      > Literally nothing the Chinese do with energy policy right now will appease the west. Serious development and commercialization of small modular nuclear reactors as an alternative to coal would probably do the trick.

likeabbas 5y ago

It would be more beneficial to the world to reign in the heaviest polluters first and then go after the remaining polluters.

albatross13 5y ago

> China has a still growing economy No matter how many UN councils vote to agree on this, we both know it's not true.