5 ms·

I dont think hydrogen is the wrong bet, it just the mature evolution of the electric economy. Batteries cant hold enough power per pound/size or charge as fast

I dont think hydrogen is the wrong bet, it just the mature evolution of the electric economy. Batteries cant hold enough power per pound/size or charge as fast as hydrogen and we will need hydrogen for those applications that batteries cant handle, like driving across the country or powering trains on our current rail network. Furthermore, electricity cant be piped through our existing gas infrastructure. Hydrogen complements solar and batteries but I think solar and battery will get into consumer hands first. Consumers don't require the high density energy storage that hydrogen/oil allows.

mnadkvlb 5y ago
Can you explain why would one power trains by hydrogen, when there are already electricty lines running over tracks ? I cannot imagine a case, Unless we dont trust the grid reliability. What am i missing here ?
- Ma8ee 5y ago
  There aren’t electricity lines running over all tracks. In particular freight is still often hauled by Diesel engines.
  - mnadkvlb 5y ago
    oh, that makes sense. Its been a long time i saw diesel engines and probably thought its a past thing. Apparently not :)
    - bluGill 5y ago
      Most freight in the world is diesel (that is diesel electric). For passenger trains, only tourist trains run on non-electric lines - many steam engines, but there are some diesel as well. (Amtrak should take this as an insult)
      - asdff 5y ago
        Most (maybe all?) of metrolink in southern california is not yet electrified or even entirely double tracked. 12m boardings a year before the pandemic so it still gets used.
        bluGill 5y ago
        Another example of a badly run system with success despite itself
  - theshrike79 5y ago
    AFAIK many if not most trains (in Europe at least) are diesel-electric. The drive train is electric, they're just running a diesel generator to power them.
    - Ma8ee 5y ago
      I didn't know, so your comment prompted me to do some reading. Apparently diesel-electric is what has been in use more or less from the start. It's too hard to make clutches usable for trains.
- aembleton 5y ago
  Railway lines that aren't electrified and with no plans to do so.
bryanlarsen 5y ago
A 500 mile Tesla has a lot more internal space than a similarly sized ICE vehicle, which has more internal space than an similarly sized Hydrogen vehicle. Volume is a bigger constraint than weight for land vehicles. Hydrogen might be the better option for airplanes, though. Hydrogen has massive losses when piped and causes embrittlement. Electricity is much easier to transport.
nickik 5y ago
Fast Charging of current fast charger is already plenty fast. And next generation that is already being deployed is even faster. Before Hydrogen vehicles could reach even 0.1% market share that advantage will be gone. And it totally ignores the massive issues with hydrogen charging. Charger frozen to the car, constantly broken, incredibly difficult, huge issues handling high volume, require a lot of power and so on. > Batteries cant hold enough power per pound/size A comparable Tesla is lighter then a Mirai. Batteries still have massive amounts of improvements to make. Structural batteries is gone make it even lighter and battery density is improving every single year. FCV on the other hand have far less ways to be lighter then they currently are. EV will beat FCV on weight and efficiency by far and the lead is increasing. > like driving across the country That already works great with EV. > or powering trains Why not just use methanol? Almost the same as current tech for diesel trains and you can make it in almost the same way as hydrogen if you really want to make it carbon neutral. > Furthermore, electricity cant be piped through our existing gas infrastructure. Electric infrastructure that can do that already exists. Also, doing that is actually very, very costly and not worth doing. This infrastructure then ends up suffering from hydrogen embitterment and has massive leakage and is really expensive to maintain. > Hydrogen complements solar and batteries but I think solar and battery will get into consumer hands first. Consumers don't require the high density energy storage that hydrogen/oil allows. There are already many companies who are trying to make batteries that are more efficient and cheaper at storing energy then creating hydrogen. Using hydrogen as a battery is inefficient and expensive. Grid batteries don't need to be energy dense. The only thing that matters is cost.

mnadkvlb 5y ago

Can you explain why would one power trains by hydrogen, when there are already electricty lines running over tracks ? I cannot imagine a case, Unless we dont trust the grid reliability. What am i missing here ?

Ma8ee 5y ago
There aren’t electricity lines running over all tracks. In particular freight is still often hauled by Diesel engines.
- mnadkvlb 5y ago
  oh, that makes sense. Its been a long time i saw diesel engines and probably thought its a past thing. Apparently not :)
  - bluGill 5y ago
    Most freight in the world is diesel (that is diesel electric). For passenger trains, only tourist trains run on non-electric lines - many steam engines, but there are some diesel as well. (Amtrak should take this as an insult)
    - asdff 5y ago
      Most (maybe all?) of metrolink in southern california is not yet electrified or even entirely double tracked. 12m boardings a year before the pandemic so it still gets used.
      - bluGill 5y ago
        Another example of a badly run system with success despite itself
- theshrike79 5y ago
  AFAIK many if not most trains (in Europe at least) are diesel-electric. The drive train is electric, they're just running a diesel generator to power them.
  - Ma8ee 5y ago
    I didn't know, so your comment prompted me to do some reading. Apparently diesel-electric is what has been in use more or less from the start. It's too hard to make clutches usable for trains.
aembleton 5y ago
Railway lines that aren't electrified and with no plans to do so.

bryanlarsen 5y ago

A 500 mile Tesla has a lot more internal space than a similarly sized ICE vehicle, which has more internal space than an similarly sized Hydrogen vehicle. Volume is a bigger constraint than weight for land vehicles. Hydrogen might be the better option for airplanes, though. Hydrogen has massive losses when piped and causes embrittlement. Electricity is much easier to transport.

nickik 5y ago

Fast Charging of current fast charger is already plenty fast. And next generation that is already being deployed is even faster. Before Hydrogen vehicles could reach even 0.1% market share that advantage will be gone. And it totally ignores the massive issues with hydrogen charging. Charger frozen to the car, constantly broken, incredibly difficult, huge issues handling high volume, require a lot of power and so on. > Batteries cant hold enough power per pound/size A comparable Tesla is lighter then a Mirai. Batteries still have massive amounts of improvements to make. Structural batteries is gone make it even lighter and battery density is improving every single year. FCV on the other hand have far less ways to be lighter then they currently are. EV will beat FCV on weight and efficiency by far and the lead is increasing. > like driving across the country That already works great with EV. > or powering trains Why not just use methanol? Almost the same as current tech for diesel trains and you can make it in almost the same way as hydrogen if you really want to make it carbon neutral. > Furthermore, electricity cant be piped through our existing gas infrastructure. Electric infrastructure that can do that already exists. Also, doing that is actually very, very costly and not worth doing. This infrastructure then ends up suffering from hydrogen embitterment and has massive leakage and is really expensive to maintain. > Hydrogen complements solar and batteries but I think solar and battery will get into consumer hands first. Consumers don't require the high density energy storage that hydrogen/oil allows. There are already many companies who are trying to make batteries that are more efficient and cheaper at storing energy then creating hydrogen. Using hydrogen as a battery is inefficient and expensive. Grid batteries don't need to be energy dense. The only thing that matters is cost.