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> [Toyota] has argued that hybrids, like the Toyota Prius, as well as hydrogen-powered fuel cell vehicles should also be in the mix. This is totally fair; I'm

> [Toyota] has argued that hybrids, like the Toyota Prius, as well as hydrogen-powered fuel cell vehicles should also be in the mix. This is totally fair; I'm glad Toyota is making this case. Hybrids like the Prius should be part of our solution to curb co2. Unlike Teslas, Priuses are actually affordable to a large number of Americans.

CarVac 5y ago
If Toyota were serious about this, then every vehicle they make should be a hybrid, instead of a mere 20-something percent.
- dartdartdart 5y ago
  Aren't they one of the most hybridized car companized out there, offering hybrids from compact car to minivan. Even Ford licenses Toyota's hybrid technology
  - CarVac 5y ago
    They do offer them, but not on every vehicle (particularly the pickups and more trucklike SUVs), and only 23% of NA Toyotas and Lexuses were hybrids in Q1 2021. If they believe that fuel cell vehicles are the future, they ought to hybridize every gasoline vehicle they sell right now, because fuel cell vehicles will only require more batteries and more electric motor capacity than hybrids. If they hypothetically believed that electric cars were the future but still want to wait to release full-electrics, they ought to hybridize every individual vehicle sold while they build up production capacity for batteries and motors. For reference, normal hybrids have only about 2 kWh of battery, about 1/30 the capacity and anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 the motor power compared to a pure EV. 23% isn't that bad, but that's 23% hybrid: it's still only baby steps towards either pure electric or fuel cell. This leads me to only one conclusion: they're not serious about pushing production of either fuel cells or electric vehicles.
    - dartdartdart 5y ago
      I think you're on the right track, but hybridized offerings / total offerings isn't the right way to depict this. If you have a car company that sells 10 vehicles per year and only have 1 model, then that would be 100% in your books. I would look at how many models total that Toyota group offers, which I believe is one of the highest in the industry. Couple this with the fact that they are the biggest car industry in the world, means that they are doing more for the reduction of gasoline burning than most other companies, including EV only companies. Total USA EV market share is somewhere around 2%, and at best that means 2% of those people replaced their non-hybrid with EVs. I believe they are planning a mass hybridization of their line-up with each new model that comes out now. The Sienna only comes in hybrid now, and that was released a year ago. See my other comment in this thread. If all 300k EVs sold in North America were used as the battery source for Hybrids, then there could be an estimated 7900% more reduction in full usage due to the fact that you can make 14 million hybrids with those vehicles.
      - CarVac 5y ago
        Yes you could make 14 million hybrids from the batteries in 300k pure EVs. But the sad truth is that Q1 2021 they only sold 140,000 hybrids in the US (23% of 600k), less even than the number of Teslas (180k). At least in the US, they are clearly not doing more than Tesla, even if they are going about it with significantly less battery usage. The Prius came out 20 years ago, and the Highlander Hybrid 15. I expected them to keep their first-mover advantage going and have hybrid-only models other than the Prius at least as early as 2015, but it took until last year to do that. It's a shame, because their hybrids are so nice—I have a Prius, and my parents just replaced their Highlander Hybrid with a RAV4 Prime.
hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
Is the hydrogen-powered fuel cell part also fair? There was an article on HN recently on how the energy losses in the generation and distribution of hydrogen are much high than for electricity in LI batteries. For all intents and purposes it just seems like hydrogen fuel cells for vehicles is a totally dead end technology, and Toyota bet wrong.
- nostromo 5y ago
  The government should structure any program so that it's technology agnostic. Let the auto manufacturers figure out what tech to bet on. The government should focus specifically on outcomes. For example: CO2 reduction, energy independence -- those sorts of things.
dawnerd 5y ago
Prius is pushing close to the cost of a base model 3... Sure they start at 24k but around here the cheapest Im seeing is 32.
- jrsj 5y ago
  8k is a massive difference. You can also negotiate on price, you’re looking at MSRP or a dealer price and they will almost always go lower. There’s also always the option of ordering a vehicle instead of buying one already in dealer inventory so you don’t have to pay for options you don’t want.
  - dawnerd 5y ago
    Toyota dealers here do not budge at all on prius prices since they don't have a problem selling them.
    - jrsj 5y ago
      Still, even at an $8k difference you’re looking at $150/mo at a lower interest rate than most would get for 60 mo. Most car buyers don’t want a $600/mo payment. Yes, average new car price is something like 38k but a lot of that is going to SUVs, not a midsize car like a Tesla.
mnadkvlb 5y ago
where i live in Switzerland the prices for: 1. hyundai kona 64kwh (480km range): 33k swiss francs (1 franc ~ 1usd) 2. toyota prius base model: 31k swiss francs 3. tesla model 3: 40k swiss franc I honestly find no reason to invest in an ice/hybrid when i can get way better warranty on a korean hyundai at similar price or get a tesla for 9k more if i want something very shiny. Personally i use car sharing here and use couple times a month for electric renault zoe here, which is still way less than what it would cost me to lease or buy any of the cars i mentioned above.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
>Unlike Teslas, Priuses are actually affordable to a large number of Americans. Which is part of why they fell out of favor so hard with the white collar demographics.
kingnothing 5y ago
The average new car price in the US is $37k. A Model 3 is $39k.
- ffggvv 5y ago
  that’s tilted up because of rich people. who actually buy cars more often as well. and of course misses used cars. your average person making 50k isn’t buying a 37k car
  - kingnothing 5y ago
    There are used EVs on the market.
- omginternets 5y ago
  The mean is going to be skewed to the right by a small number of expensive cars. The median is the correct measure.
theshrike79 5y ago
A Prius Plug-in is 44k€ in Finland A Model 3 SR+ is 48k + a 2k€ government subsidy -> 46k€ So yeah, not that affordable. One has two power trains that need to be taken care of + oil changes etc. Other has 0€/year maintenance costs.
- helen___keller 5y ago
  I'm not sure why the gap is so different here, but in the states a model 3 SR+ is $39,990 before incentives while a prius prime MSRP is $28220, which is pretty significant difference (40% ~ difference) Plus in the states there's also subsidies available for plug-in hybrids, not sure about finland.
- r00fus 5y ago
  Excuse me, you still have to refill the wiper fluid. Oh, and every few years you have to replace the 12v battery (yes every EV has one) and tires. So non-zero cost. But that's being a bit pedantic.
  - theshrike79 5y ago
    Who replaces their 12V battery "every few years"? What are you doing to the poor battery? :D
    - r00fus 5y ago
      Primer on why 12v batteries on EVs get sick and corrode more quickly. It's possible this is only on specific models: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu30bchGu50 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu30bchGu50
jimbob45 5y ago
This is my question too. I don't really feel like I've found an adequate answer anywhere in this thread. Aren't hybrids a massive step in the right direction? Is the complaint just that hybrids don't reduce CO2 emissions enough? Or is there some other compelling argument against them that I'm missing?

CarVac 5y ago

If Toyota were serious about this, then every vehicle they make should be a hybrid, instead of a mere 20-something percent.

dartdartdart 5y ago
Aren't they one of the most hybridized car companized out there, offering hybrids from compact car to minivan. Even Ford licenses Toyota's hybrid technology
- CarVac 5y ago
  They do offer them, but not on every vehicle (particularly the pickups and more trucklike SUVs), and only 23% of NA Toyotas and Lexuses were hybrids in Q1 2021. If they believe that fuel cell vehicles are the future, they ought to hybridize every gasoline vehicle they sell right now, because fuel cell vehicles will only require more batteries and more electric motor capacity than hybrids. If they hypothetically believed that electric cars were the future but still want to wait to release full-electrics, they ought to hybridize every individual vehicle sold while they build up production capacity for batteries and motors. For reference, normal hybrids have only about 2 kWh of battery, about 1/30 the capacity and anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 the motor power compared to a pure EV. 23% isn't that bad, but that's 23% hybrid: it's still only baby steps towards either pure electric or fuel cell. This leads me to only one conclusion: they're not serious about pushing production of either fuel cells or electric vehicles.
  - dartdartdart 5y ago
    I think you're on the right track, but hybridized offerings / total offerings isn't the right way to depict this. If you have a car company that sells 10 vehicles per year and only have 1 model, then that would be 100% in your books. I would look at how many models total that Toyota group offers, which I believe is one of the highest in the industry. Couple this with the fact that they are the biggest car industry in the world, means that they are doing more for the reduction of gasoline burning than most other companies, including EV only companies. Total USA EV market share is somewhere around 2%, and at best that means 2% of those people replaced their non-hybrid with EVs. I believe they are planning a mass hybridization of their line-up with each new model that comes out now. The Sienna only comes in hybrid now, and that was released a year ago. See my other comment in this thread. If all 300k EVs sold in North America were used as the battery source for Hybrids, then there could be an estimated 7900% more reduction in full usage due to the fact that you can make 14 million hybrids with those vehicles.
    - CarVac 5y ago
      Yes you could make 14 million hybrids from the batteries in 300k pure EVs. But the sad truth is that Q1 2021 they only sold 140,000 hybrids in the US (23% of 600k), less even than the number of Teslas (180k). At least in the US, they are clearly not doing more than Tesla, even if they are going about it with significantly less battery usage. The Prius came out 20 years ago, and the Highlander Hybrid 15. I expected them to keep their first-mover advantage going and have hybrid-only models other than the Prius at least as early as 2015, but it took until last year to do that. It's a shame, because their hybrids are so nice—I have a Prius, and my parents just replaced their Highlander Hybrid with a RAV4 Prime.

hn_throwaway_99 5y ago

Is the hydrogen-powered fuel cell part also fair? There was an article on HN recently on how the energy losses in the generation and distribution of hydrogen are much high than for electricity in LI batteries. For all intents and purposes it just seems like hydrogen fuel cells for vehicles is a totally dead end technology, and Toyota bet wrong.

nostromo 5y ago
The government should structure any program so that it's technology agnostic. Let the auto manufacturers figure out what tech to bet on. The government should focus specifically on outcomes. For example: CO2 reduction, energy independence -- those sorts of things.

dawnerd 5y ago

Prius is pushing close to the cost of a base model 3... Sure they start at 24k but around here the cheapest Im seeing is 32.

jrsj 5y ago
8k is a massive difference. You can also negotiate on price, you’re looking at MSRP or a dealer price and they will almost always go lower. There’s also always the option of ordering a vehicle instead of buying one already in dealer inventory so you don’t have to pay for options you don’t want.
- dawnerd 5y ago
  Toyota dealers here do not budge at all on prius prices since they don't have a problem selling them.
  - jrsj 5y ago
    Still, even at an $8k difference you’re looking at $150/mo at a lower interest rate than most would get for 60 mo. Most car buyers don’t want a $600/mo payment. Yes, average new car price is something like 38k but a lot of that is going to SUVs, not a midsize car like a Tesla.

mnadkvlb 5y ago

where i live in Switzerland the prices for: 1. hyundai kona 64kwh (480km range): 33k swiss francs (1 franc ~ 1usd) 2. toyota prius base model: 31k swiss francs 3. tesla model 3: 40k swiss franc I honestly find no reason to invest in an ice/hybrid when i can get way better warranty on a korean hyundai at similar price or get a tesla for 9k more if i want something very shiny. Personally i use car sharing here and use couple times a month for electric renault zoe here, which is still way less than what it would cost me to lease or buy any of the cars i mentioned above.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

>Unlike Teslas, Priuses are actually affordable to a large number of Americans. Which is part of why they fell out of favor so hard with the white collar demographics.

kingnothing 5y ago

The average new car price in the US is $37k. A Model 3 is $39k.

ffggvv 5y ago
that’s tilted up because of rich people. who actually buy cars more often as well. and of course misses used cars. your average person making 50k isn’t buying a 37k car
- kingnothing 5y ago
  There are used EVs on the market.
omginternets 5y ago
The mean is going to be skewed to the right by a small number of expensive cars. The median is the correct measure.

theshrike79 5y ago

A Prius Plug-in is 44k€ in Finland A Model 3 SR+ is 48k + a 2k€ government subsidy -> 46k€ So yeah, not that affordable. One has two power trains that need to be taken care of + oil changes etc. Other has 0€/year maintenance costs.

helen___keller 5y ago
I'm not sure why the gap is so different here, but in the states a model 3 SR+ is $39,990 before incentives while a prius prime MSRP is $28220, which is pretty significant difference (40% ~ difference) Plus in the states there's also subsidies available for plug-in hybrids, not sure about finland.
r00fus 5y ago
Excuse me, you still have to refill the wiper fluid. Oh, and every few years you have to replace the 12v battery (yes every EV has one) and tires. So non-zero cost. But that's being a bit pedantic.
- theshrike79 5y ago
  Who replaces their 12V battery "every few years"? What are you doing to the poor battery? :D
  - r00fus 5y ago
    Primer on why 12v batteries on EVs get sick and corrode more quickly. It's possible this is only on specific models: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu30bchGu50 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu30bchGu50

jimbob45 5y ago

This is my question too. I don't really feel like I've found an adequate answer anywhere in this thread. Aren't hybrids a massive step in the right direction? Is the complaint just that hybrids don't reduce CO2 emissions enough? Or is there some other compelling argument against them that I'm missing?