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>the Japanese are so hostile to foreigners/immigrants that it's borderline xenophobia Have you ever actually visited Japan? If so, how do you usually behave?

>the Japanese are so hostile to foreigners/immigrants that it's borderline xenophobia Have you ever actually visited Japan? If so, how do you usually behave? I'm white and haven't really had a single negative experience. I've also made several friends who are incredibly friendly, keep in touch, etc. When I've been lost, random Japanese citizens, not even government officials, have helped me find my way, even taking me over a block away from where they were to make sure I found what I was looking for. Occasionally there are glances and stares but I'd definitely not classify that as "hostile".

blinzy 5y ago
Not the person you replied to but I've been to Japan twice, with different people, each for a month across Honshu/Kyushu and can definitely say there's a duality in how they behave towards foreigners... On one hand, as you mention, we experienced lots of acts of politeness, as I would put it, e.g., being helped to find some location as in your example, being helped to understand some menu dishes when I couldn't decipher them (I had at most intermediate level of Japanese), being bowed to upon entering hotels, ryokans, etc. On the other hand, we also experienced straight up nasty behaviour, e.g., someone standing up and leaving the train wagon when we sat next to him (and then reentering through the next door and sitting far away from us), being forbidden from entering a bar because of being foreigners (despite the fact I can speak Japanese, not great admittedly, but more than sufficient to order, pay, etc.). When talking with people from my country settled there the common negative theme is "you'll never be accepted/treated as one of them".
- spike021 5y ago
  >On the other hand, we also experienced straight up nasty behaviour, e.g., someone standing up and leaving the train wagon when we sat next to him (and then reentering through the next door and sitting far away from us), being forbidden from entering a bar because of being foreigners (despite the fact I can speak Japanese, not great admittedly, but more than sufficient to order, pay, etc.). Sure, I observed some of these things and didn't always feel comfortable about it. But I wouldn't consider them hostile. The way I was told, some of the things about bars not allowing foreigners is more that they get booked for post-work drinking parties. Maybe that's not always the real explanation, but I realized it wasn't a big deal. If you're in a large city like Tokyo, Sapporo, or Kyoto, there are bars and restaurants everywhere, just move on to the next one. As far as people coming and going out of trains or not sitting next to you, yeah, I had that happen. But I'd be lying if I said I've never observed or even done the same thing here in the US.
  - blinzy 5y ago
    The train situation is not "we were sat down --> he entered the train --> he decided not to sit down next to us and sat elsewhere", but "he was sat down --> we entered the train and sat close to him (not literally next to him, just close) --> he stood up, exited the train through the closest door, entered the train again through a different door and sat further away from us" which is a WTF situation in my opinion. The bar banning foreigners is not just hostile but also illegal in many other countries, if you try that shit in the UK, Germany, or Spain (I can speak from experience having lived there, but I guess it wouldn't fly in the US either?) they'll shut down your venue and possibly fine you.
    - spike021 5y ago
      But that's not a hostile situation. He didn't engage you at all. He felt uncomfortable and moved away. Maybe over-dramatically, but it didn't cause you or anyone else, including himself, any harm. Again, I encountered this behavior too. It made me feel uncomfortable, but it was understandable. Some people just don't feel comfortable. Honestly I'd rather someone do something to feel more comfortable than let me invade their space and bother them. Not sure on the rules in the US, but bars and restaurants can certainly restrict people from entering for various reasons.
      - blinzy 5y ago
        I believe we are interpreting hostile differently because for me it doesn't necessarily imply actively antagonistic or harmful, it can simply mean inhospitable/unfriendly and that to me is a textbook situation. Here there are also situations where they can refuse entry/service, e.g., you're not wearing tshirt and shoes, or you're drunk and belligerent, but certainly not because of your race, sex, gender, etc. In any case, to avoid going back and forth on the same topic, I reiterate that my personal experience (and my 2 friends from the first trip, and my partner from the second) was that although we had wonderful experiences with Japanese people that made us feel generally welcome as tourists, we were left with the impression that if we already had issues like those I wrote about what other problems someone living there permanently could encounter (maybe problems when renting, dating, etc.) I loved visiting Japan, it's the most unique/different of all countries I've been to, but the bittersweet taste it left in me took away any desire to look for jobs there when I left Germany (not my country of origin either).
chillacy 5y ago
There is a type of hostility which is very polite and bureaucratic hostility, the kind encoded in immigration laws and policing... but executed politely. For example, in a dispute with a Japanese person, the police are pretty famous for making foreigners second class citizens. I'm sure they're polite about it though. Also a lot of casual disparaging remarks at Chinese and Koreans, along the lines of stereotypes in the US about people from Mexico, perhaps because a similar dynamic exists with illegal immigration.

blinzy 5y ago

Not the person you replied to but I've been to Japan twice, with different people, each for a month across Honshu/Kyushu and can definitely say there's a duality in how they behave towards foreigners... On one hand, as you mention, we experienced lots of acts of politeness, as I would put it, e.g., being helped to find some location as in your example, being helped to understand some menu dishes when I couldn't decipher them (I had at most intermediate level of Japanese), being bowed to upon entering hotels, ryokans, etc. On the other hand, we also experienced straight up nasty behaviour, e.g., someone standing up and leaving the train wagon when we sat next to him (and then reentering through the next door and sitting far away from us), being forbidden from entering a bar because of being foreigners (despite the fact I can speak Japanese, not great admittedly, but more than sufficient to order, pay, etc.). When talking with people from my country settled there the common negative theme is "you'll never be accepted/treated as one of them".

spike021 5y ago
>On the other hand, we also experienced straight up nasty behaviour, e.g., someone standing up and leaving the train wagon when we sat next to him (and then reentering through the next door and sitting far away from us), being forbidden from entering a bar because of being foreigners (despite the fact I can speak Japanese, not great admittedly, but more than sufficient to order, pay, etc.). Sure, I observed some of these things and didn't always feel comfortable about it. But I wouldn't consider them hostile. The way I was told, some of the things about bars not allowing foreigners is more that they get booked for post-work drinking parties. Maybe that's not always the real explanation, but I realized it wasn't a big deal. If you're in a large city like Tokyo, Sapporo, or Kyoto, there are bars and restaurants everywhere, just move on to the next one. As far as people coming and going out of trains or not sitting next to you, yeah, I had that happen. But I'd be lying if I said I've never observed or even done the same thing here in the US.
- blinzy 5y ago
  The train situation is not "we were sat down --> he entered the train --> he decided not to sit down next to us and sat elsewhere", but "he was sat down --> we entered the train and sat close to him (not literally next to him, just close) --> he stood up, exited the train through the closest door, entered the train again through a different door and sat further away from us" which is a WTF situation in my opinion. The bar banning foreigners is not just hostile but also illegal in many other countries, if you try that shit in the UK, Germany, or Spain (I can speak from experience having lived there, but I guess it wouldn't fly in the US either?) they'll shut down your venue and possibly fine you.
  - spike021 5y ago
    But that's not a hostile situation. He didn't engage you at all. He felt uncomfortable and moved away. Maybe over-dramatically, but it didn't cause you or anyone else, including himself, any harm. Again, I encountered this behavior too. It made me feel uncomfortable, but it was understandable. Some people just don't feel comfortable. Honestly I'd rather someone do something to feel more comfortable than let me invade their space and bother them. Not sure on the rules in the US, but bars and restaurants can certainly restrict people from entering for various reasons.
    - blinzy 5y ago
      I believe we are interpreting hostile differently because for me it doesn't necessarily imply actively antagonistic or harmful, it can simply mean inhospitable/unfriendly and that to me is a textbook situation. Here there are also situations where they can refuse entry/service, e.g., you're not wearing tshirt and shoes, or you're drunk and belligerent, but certainly not because of your race, sex, gender, etc. In any case, to avoid going back and forth on the same topic, I reiterate that my personal experience (and my 2 friends from the first trip, and my partner from the second) was that although we had wonderful experiences with Japanese people that made us feel generally welcome as tourists, we were left with the impression that if we already had issues like those I wrote about what other problems someone living there permanently could encounter (maybe problems when renting, dating, etc.) I loved visiting Japan, it's the most unique/different of all countries I've been to, but the bittersweet taste it left in me took away any desire to look for jobs there when I left Germany (not my country of origin either).

chillacy 5y ago

There is a type of hostility which is very polite and bureaucratic hostility, the kind encoded in immigration laws and policing... but executed politely. For example, in a dispute with a Japanese person, the police are pretty famous for making foreigners second class citizens. I'm sure they're polite about it though. Also a lot of casual disparaging remarks at Chinese and Koreans, along the lines of stereotypes in the US about people from Mexico, perhaps because a similar dynamic exists with illegal immigration.