4 ms·

Obviously this post is hyperbolic to make a point and I think I agree with some of it. But one thing that I think is a straw man is saying that "Developers are

Obviously this post is hyperbolic to make a point and I think I agree with some of it. But one thing that I think is a straw man is saying that "Developers are their own testers" which I think is profoundly missing the point of modern software testing. It's not that you should just "test your own code" and toss it in production, it's that testing is part of the software development process and "developers" should be full participants in everything from designing/developing code to testing it. And that means, yes when you develop a new feature you also need to deliver automated tests for that feature and not just throw it over the wall to "QA" to test it.

the_arun 5y ago
I agree with you because it makes me accountable for what I am building and be empathetic with my customers as well. I also agree with the point about "Blind Spot" from the author. It is just another perspective. Software is used by multiple users and "it works for me" is not encouraged unless we are building for one user. So, we need to get feedback from others and improve to address more kinds of users.
scotty79 5y ago
Developers make a absolutely horrible testers. It requires completely different skillset. It's pure arrogance that developers can do anything, including testing. And automated tests only test things that developer thought about. If anything developer of given piece of code should be expressly forbidden from delivering automated test for his code and other developer should be tasked with this with guiding goal of making the test fail on the initial implementation from the first developer.
- xupybd 5y ago
  Automated tests are brilliant in maintenance mode. Find a bug, write a test. Lock in the behavior until the requirements change.
  - postalrat 5y ago
    Sounds good. Find a bug, write a test. Never find a bug, never write a test.
- majkinetor 5y ago
  Developers must have this skill because you need to design for tests in order to do them properly. Forbidding is nonsense. A. test is also form of documentation. Nothing stops you to add more tests on top of those by different person.
  - scotty79 5y ago
    They don't have this skill. Even the ones think they do. And when it comes to their own code it's even worse. One talented QA is worth 10-100 developers when it comes to finding bugs in their software.
    - majkinetor 5y ago
      The QA doesn't have a skill to design code for tests too :)
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago
  Both developer and non-developer testing is mandatory. The testing space is infinite, you can't test for all possible scenarios even theoretically. So you should know where to look for bugs.
hinkley 5y ago
A cornerstone of the Kanban manufacturing process is that QA is done all along the manufacturing process, not something that is just tacked onto the end. It doesn’t mean no QA is done at the end. It’s just less overhead to also do it along the way.

the_arun 5y ago

I agree with you because it makes me accountable for what I am building and be empathetic with my customers as well. I also agree with the point about "Blind Spot" from the author. It is just another perspective. Software is used by multiple users and "it works for me" is not encouraged unless we are building for one user. So, we need to get feedback from others and improve to address more kinds of users.

scotty79 5y ago

Developers make a absolutely horrible testers. It requires completely different skillset. It's pure arrogance that developers can do anything, including testing. And automated tests only test things that developer thought about. If anything developer of given piece of code should be expressly forbidden from delivering automated test for his code and other developer should be tasked with this with guiding goal of making the test fail on the initial implementation from the first developer.

xupybd 5y ago
Automated tests are brilliant in maintenance mode. Find a bug, write a test. Lock in the behavior until the requirements change.
- postalrat 5y ago
  Sounds good. Find a bug, write a test. Never find a bug, never write a test.
majkinetor 5y ago
Developers must have this skill because you need to design for tests in order to do them properly. Forbidding is nonsense. A. test is also form of documentation. Nothing stops you to add more tests on top of those by different person.
- scotty79 5y ago
  They don't have this skill. Even the ones think they do. And when it comes to their own code it's even worse. One talented QA is worth 10-100 developers when it comes to finding bugs in their software.
  - majkinetor 5y ago
    The QA doesn't have a skill to design code for tests too :)
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago
Both developer and non-developer testing is mandatory. The testing space is infinite, you can't test for all possible scenarios even theoretically. So you should know where to look for bugs.

hinkley 5y ago

A cornerstone of the Kanban manufacturing process is that QA is done all along the manufacturing process, not something that is just tacked onto the end. It doesn’t mean no QA is done at the end. It’s just less overhead to also do it along the way.