5 ms·

Luddites gonna Luddite. Too bad, really, since Toyota kicked off the hybrid revolution, now they're hitched to the wrong horse and being babies.

ocdtrekkie 5y ago
Yeah, this is an unfortunate transition considering Toyota has generally been the most technologically sophisticated mainstream car manufacturer. When I recently did some test driving, Toyotas were by far the most advanced vehicles I test drove, I'd expect them to have no difficulty competing in a post-combustion environment. I didn't end up purchasing a Toyota this time around, but only because the primary criteria to meet wasn't technological superiority.
- browningstreet 5y ago
  Huh? They’re very much not advanced. They’re simpler cars than their rivals, which allows for higher dependability. That’s the whole crux of their offering. (on my second Toyota, after years of driving Audi’s)
  - ocdtrekkie 5y ago
    For your base model Camry, sure. But on the higher trim levels, you'll see a lot of features and options other manufacturers don't even have. And a lot of companies have "a hybrid model" or "an electric model", but that's it. Bear in mind, the most common class of car today is the crossover or SUV. Toyota can sell you any model of its cars as a hybrid. Meanwhile, when I shop around other SUVs, and then ask if they sell it as a hybrid, they give me a dumbfounded look, like the idea of selling a car with a third row seat that has a hybrid engine is absolutely ludicrous.
    - t0mbstone 5y ago
      Oohh I see what you mean. I thought you were talking about their technology like automatic cruise control (with full stop-and-go) and lane keep assist. Subaru and Hyundai, for example, have both had those technologies in their cars since around 2013 or so, while Toyota literally only just recently released those features a year or so ago. And Toyota's lane keep assist is TERRIBLE.
      - ocdtrekkie 5y ago
        I ended up buying a Kia (which shares it's DNA with a similar Hyundai model), and I can confirm that their automatic cruise control is stellar, FWIW.
    - browningstreet 5y ago
      ...instead of working on EVs, so now they find themselves behind in the changing market, so they lobby for higher emission standards. They may offer more hybrids across their product line-up, but their in-car/dash tech is far behind, and Lexus has been a laggard for many years.
  - jrsj 5y ago
    In a way being able to engineer and produce something simpler at a large scale very consistently with few defects is more advanced than having more advanced but unreliable technology you sell at a lower volume
- vsskanth 5y ago
  Toyota aren't technologically sophisticated by design. They only use tried and tested technology which have been out for years. This is how they have stellar reliability. However I think they really innovated on hybrids. German OEMs have the most new mechanical tech followed by the Americans.
delfinom 5y ago
No, the problem is domestically, the Japanese government wants Toyota to do fuel cells, not batteries. It's causing no doubt development problems for them to work on both.
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  Does Japan have some advantage with hydrogen I don’t know about? EDIT: thanks, the possibility that they could create a local industry of manufacturing fuel cells instead of relying on foreign-manufactured batteries makes a lot of sense to me.
  - paulmd 5y ago
    Japan generally has the population density to roll out new infrastructure very quickly, so while I have no idea if they have any existing infrastructure in that area, the feeling may be that hydrogen is a "better" solution and they would rather just roll that out instead of the "easier, worse" solution (which also requires an infrastructure roll out to a large degree - just not as much as hydrogen). I'm not saying hydrogen actually is better here, mind you, but if they think so, they may want to just go ahead and do it.
    - thehappypm 5y ago
      It’s funny because the infrastructure for electric cars is just a supplement to existing grids, vs hydrogen which needs new pipelines/trucks/filling stations.
      - paulmd 5y ago
        that's what I'm saying, Japan is a small enough and dense enough country that rolling out a more complicated set of infrastructure is easier than it would be to do it in a place like the US. So maybe their thought is that electric is a half-measure and the "right" way is hydrogen, and they'll just roll it out and be done with it, because that's what Japan does. The kink in the plan being that the rest of the world is going the other way.

ocdtrekkie 5y ago

Yeah, this is an unfortunate transition considering Toyota has generally been the most technologically sophisticated mainstream car manufacturer. When I recently did some test driving, Toyotas were by far the most advanced vehicles I test drove, I'd expect them to have no difficulty competing in a post-combustion environment. I didn't end up purchasing a Toyota this time around, but only because the primary criteria to meet wasn't technological superiority.

browningstreet 5y ago
Huh? They’re very much not advanced. They’re simpler cars than their rivals, which allows for higher dependability. That’s the whole crux of their offering. (on my second Toyota, after years of driving Audi’s)
- ocdtrekkie 5y ago
  For your base model Camry, sure. But on the higher trim levels, you'll see a lot of features and options other manufacturers don't even have. And a lot of companies have "a hybrid model" or "an electric model", but that's it. Bear in mind, the most common class of car today is the crossover or SUV. Toyota can sell you any model of its cars as a hybrid. Meanwhile, when I shop around other SUVs, and then ask if they sell it as a hybrid, they give me a dumbfounded look, like the idea of selling a car with a third row seat that has a hybrid engine is absolutely ludicrous.
  - t0mbstone 5y ago
    Oohh I see what you mean. I thought you were talking about their technology like automatic cruise control (with full stop-and-go) and lane keep assist. Subaru and Hyundai, for example, have both had those technologies in their cars since around 2013 or so, while Toyota literally only just recently released those features a year or so ago. And Toyota's lane keep assist is TERRIBLE.
    - ocdtrekkie 5y ago
      I ended up buying a Kia (which shares it's DNA with a similar Hyundai model), and I can confirm that their automatic cruise control is stellar, FWIW.
  - browningstreet 5y ago
    ...instead of working on EVs, so now they find themselves behind in the changing market, so they lobby for higher emission standards. They may offer more hybrids across their product line-up, but their in-car/dash tech is far behind, and Lexus has been a laggard for many years.
- jrsj 5y ago
  In a way being able to engineer and produce something simpler at a large scale very consistently with few defects is more advanced than having more advanced but unreliable technology you sell at a lower volume
vsskanth 5y ago
Toyota aren't technologically sophisticated by design. They only use tried and tested technology which have been out for years. This is how they have stellar reliability. However I think they really innovated on hybrids. German OEMs have the most new mechanical tech followed by the Americans.

delfinom 5y ago

No, the problem is domestically, the Japanese government wants Toyota to do fuel cells, not batteries. It's causing no doubt development problems for them to work on both.

jazzyjackson 5y ago
Does Japan have some advantage with hydrogen I don’t know about? EDIT: thanks, the possibility that they could create a local industry of manufacturing fuel cells instead of relying on foreign-manufactured batteries makes a lot of sense to me.
- paulmd 5y ago
  Japan generally has the population density to roll out new infrastructure very quickly, so while I have no idea if they have any existing infrastructure in that area, the feeling may be that hydrogen is a "better" solution and they would rather just roll that out instead of the "easier, worse" solution (which also requires an infrastructure roll out to a large degree - just not as much as hydrogen). I'm not saying hydrogen actually is better here, mind you, but if they think so, they may want to just go ahead and do it.
  - thehappypm 5y ago
    It’s funny because the infrastructure for electric cars is just a supplement to existing grids, vs hydrogen which needs new pipelines/trucks/filling stations.
    - paulmd 5y ago
      that's what I'm saying, Japan is a small enough and dense enough country that rolling out a more complicated set of infrastructure is easier than it would be to do it in a place like the US. So maybe their thought is that electric is a half-measure and the "right" way is hydrogen, and they'll just roll it out and be done with it, because that's what Japan does. The kink in the plan being that the rest of the world is going the other way.