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It’s blatantly false that light trucks and up can’t use lithium ion batteries. In fact, the business case is actually better than for electric commuter cars due
by Robotbeat 5y ago
It’s blatantly false that light trucks and up can’t use lithium ion batteries. In fact, the business case is actually better than for electric commuter cars due to the much greater efficiency. Longer range trucks are a bit of a challenge due to total weight, but doable. (And battery electric freight trains make WAY more sense than hydrogen freight trains and are actually super easy to electrify due to ability to just use overhead lines for charging and the greater efficiency of rail.)
Also, hydrogen fuel cell trucks (and cars) are worse (compared to battery) than you might think. (On the car side, the Model 3LR has more range, costs less to buy, costs far less to fuel, has a huge fast charging network, can be charged anywhere with an outlet, is much faster and actually weighs less than the hydrogen Mirai.) Hydrogen fuel cell trucks require a huge heat exchanger (with a fan), really heavy and bulky compressed hydrogen tanks, and the cost of motor hydrogen (ie distributed for dispensing to vehicles) is much, MUCH greater than that of electricity and the conversion efficiency is lower than batteries plus the fuel cells themselves have a limited lifetime and aren’t cheap, plus you need a lithium ion battery anyway and the cost of the dispensing stations is very large (even adjusted for fueling speed) due to need to cryogenically cool hydrogen before dispensing, the presence of big compressors, safety mitigations, etc.
Electric trucks are pretty straightforward compared to fuel cell hydrogen trucks.
You’re right that hydrogen production is generally from steam reforming of fossil fuels nowadays, but until the 1940s when steam reforming became available on an industrial scale, electrolysis was actually the most common industrial hydrogen source using (for instance) abundant hydroelectric power. This was used for making ammonia fertilizer, etc. (New iron plants in the US actually use a syngas mix of hydrogen and CO, although the mix can be adjusted to virtually all hydrogen without too much trouble.) So we absolutely CAN produce hydrogen using electricity, and there’s a long history of doing so, although battery electric vehicles are far more efficient than hydrogen vehicles. That, combined with heat pumps, should enable us to limit the amount of more electricity we’ll need.
Our current electricity usage in the US is ~475GW average, and by efficient decarbonization of almost all energy usage, I calculate we’d need about 1000GW total average electricity, so just a bit more than double we have now… although about 40% of current electrical energy production in the US is already decarbonized, about half of it nuclear, so we already have a leg up). that means we need ~715 GW average of more clean electricity than we have now. The US produces over 5 billion bushels of corn per year for ethanol. At 170 bushels per acre yield, that’s about 30 million acres. At typical solar farm output of about 40000 Watts average per acre (ie multiplying nameplate times capacity factor divided by footprint), that’s 1200GW average, so even if all we did was use the existing footprint of biofuels and converted it to solar, we’d have more than enough clean electricity to decarbonize everything. (Not even counting biodiesel, etc.)
So again, you claim that “won’t hold up to back of the envelope estimates” isn’t true. If you like, we can discuss this one on one and I’ll explain the calculations.
- baron_harkonnen 5y agoYou didn't do any back of the envelope estimate. "so just about double we have now" would require what? Let's look at this chart of US electricity production. [0] It took us about 30 years to double our electricity generation in the US from 1975 to 2005, but since then it has largely remain flat. So how quickly do you estimate that can happen? Then you have to look at renewable production separately since that's what you have to scale. What rate of renewable production is that going to take? 0. https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/electricity-in-the-us-generation-capacity-and-sales.php https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/electricity-...
- Robotbeat 5y agoFrom the 50s to the 70s, we doubled our electricity about once per decade, so it’s not even greater than historical capabilities to do it in one or two decades. As I showed above (sorry, I edited the post after you commented…), we’d need less land for solar than we currently use just for ethanol (which we don’t need). The calculations take longer than just a quick HN post, but it’s not hard if you just add up steel, fertilizer, plastics, gasoline (only takes about 10kWh of electricity to displace a gallon of gasoline), diesel, heating with 3COP heat pumps (higher is feasible, and northern climates should use ground source), etc.