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Well, there's a lot of people who sound pretty angry about marketing, so it suggests to me that those people are emotional about it for some reason. Maybe it IS

Well, there's a lot of people who sound pretty angry about marketing, so it suggests to me that those people are emotional about it for some reason. Maybe it IS the case for them that they cannot control their spending and fall for every marketing message that comes along and overspend their money every month. In this case, I can see why those people like that would be emotional about marketing and hate marketing so much. I've never had any issue with marketing because I am very, very careful with my money and don't spend it unless I absolutely need it. Even then, I review all options - which company to purchase from, what are the alternatives, before I make a purchase. Shopping around has saved me so much money. And yes, companies are marketing 'to make money.' Of course they are. Is trying to make money immoral? Is everyone supposed to work for free? How else are companies, made up of people trying to get a salary to pay their rent or mortgage, kids education, etc, supposed to make money? There's a lot of bitterness in your message, but what I'd like to hear is what you think the alternative is. I really want to know. How should companies proceed, in order to sell their products or services, so that their employees, like you yourself, can get paid? As an example, when you, or anyone, try to get a job, the resume is an advertisement for your services. People respond to employment advertising. But what you are doing is marketing yourself. So are you and others including myself all professional liars, by your own definition? Or are we just an amateur liars? But again, what do you think companies should do to let others know that they might have a solution for some people's problems? What should they do?

LegitShady 5y ago
Again, the purpose of marketing is to tempt people into spending money, usually as much money as possible to get them to spend. You can talk about over emotional people all you want, but for most people marketing does not a have a positive effect on their life whether they ‘resist’ overspending or not. It brings value to the marketers and marketed, the targeted are being targeted to get them to spend money, not for them to have benefit. You can define getting them to do what you want as their benefit but this is largely untrue. Is making money immoral? Not in and of itself. Is marketers pretending they’re doing marketing for everyone to benefit immoral? We’ll its certainly lying, and mostly to enrich themselves, so I’d say yes. Again, marketing as an industry is largely unnecessary and immoral except to get people to spend money on things they wouldn’t otherwise spend. We would all be better off with less marketing in our lives and in front of our eyes. If you ‘market yourself’ to get a job, you still aren’t a professional marketer doing marketing all the time. It’s the difference between someone who cooks at home and someone who cooks in a restaurant - you’re not really talking about the same thing even though you can try to muddy the waters and pretend its the same thing. I don’t care what companies should do or not do to let others know what they want them to know - it doesn’t change the negative influence of marketing on society and people in general, and it doesn’t make marketing a positive for anyone but those making money from it. That the association of marketers defines marketing as something good for everyone is lying. It’s good for them and their customers. That’s it. Everyone else knows it’s a lie, they just fall for the psychological tricks the marketers have developed since advertising is everywhere.
- France_is_bacon 5y ago
  ok, at least now you seem to be talking more rationally and less emotionally about it, which I appreciate. The way you use "marketers" to me seems incorrect. Most companies have a marketing department, so it's not really marketers, per se, it is corporations, and the CEO and CMO of the company that decide to do this. So really if you are saying that marketing is unnecessary and immoral, you are saying that just about every single company in the USA, and indeed the world, is by default, immoral. If that's your position, then that is your position. That is not a strawman or putting words in your mouth, that is just my abstracting what you said to a different level. If I'm wrong, let me know if that is not your position and why it doesn't hold true. And all companies don't lie. I agree that some companies are scumbag companies, for sure. Like cigarette companies, who I would like every executive to rot in hell forever. But most companies aren't lying. Are they spinning things to present themselves in the best light? Sure. It's like going on a date with a beautiful woman or man. Are you going to present your best face, or are you going to tell them that you fart and sometimes you miss the toilet bowl when you piss and every horrible gross thing about yourself? No. Or, maybe you would, but then you would be the outlier 6 standard deviations out there. Every normal person would not do this, meaning the vast majority of people. But I have had company salespersons who have flat out said that they cannot help me, that my needs don't match up with what they can do. They were not lying, they didn't get the commission or sale, and they were good with it. And of course, I've had salespeople lie to me. Both happened to me over the last week. Of course, I'm happy with the person who didn't lie, and not happy with the person who did, but I'm not losing sleep over it. It's the way it goes. As long as you do your due diligence, that's good enough, and if someone rips you off, at least you do your due diligence, so it's nothing to get upset about. But the point is, that I had many, many people who don't lie, and only very occasionally, rarely, even, those who do. This of course is anecdotal, but still, I think it is representative. > Is marketers pretending they’re doing marketing for everyone to benefit immoral? Well, this is absolutely not true, and if you take even one university marketing class, marketing 101, to any popular books written on the topic, they all universally disagree with this statement. The very first step in sales is to qualify/disqualify prospects. I look to disqualify people who are not a good fit, because who has the time? There are literally millions of customers for me, why even bother with someone who won't benefit? It doesn't even make sense. >Again, marketing as an industry is largely unnecessary and immoral except to get people to spend money on things they wouldn’t otherwise spend. I disagree. The purpose is to present and convince people, but the ultimate decision is in the hands of the purchaser, not the marketer. I understand that some people have no self-control and might be easily swayed, but those same people would probably be swayed to the same extent as if their friend asked them to help them rob a bank or something. >We would all be better off with less marketing in our lives and in front of our eyes. I don't disagree, but we all have that control in our lives. For example, I don't even own a television and don't watch it, for two reasons. One is that most of it is drival. Second is that I don't want to watch the commercials. Because I rarely buy things, extremely rare do I buy things, except for food. I have not been to a restaurant in at least 2 years. I purchased my used microwave from craigslist for $15, and only because I really needed one. Purchased my last (used) car for $4,000 in cash and it lasted me 17 years (averages out to $19/month, thank you very much) with no major repairs (thank you Toyota), and replaced it with another car that I bought for $5,400 in cash and expect it to last at least 10 years, and if I get to 15 or 20, yay. My point is that I get the same advertisements shot at me as everyone else does, but I don't let it affect me. Maybe I'm an anomaly. But that is why I recommend everyone to go to reddit /r/frugal. >If you ‘market yourself’ to get a job, you still aren’t a professional marketer doing marketing all the time. It’s the difference between someone who cooks at home and someone who cooks in a restaurant - you’re not really talking about the same thing even though you can try to muddy the waters and pretend its the same thing. It's still marketing, though. I agree, not professionally, but it still is. It's the same with cooking. I disagree with you on this, and against your claim that I am trying to muddy the water. >I don’t care what companies should do or not do to let others know what they want them to know Well, just humor me, then. Because it does bother you, what is the solution? What do companies do to sell their products and services? What are your thoughts? Should a plumber not market their service? How would someone even find a plumber if their pipes broke and their house was being ruined because of water damage, and they lose their $700,000 home? There has to be advertising. People need plumbers. They need food. They need electrician. They need doctors. Advertising is not getting people to buy stuff they don't need. Society needs all of this. > Everyone else knows it’s a lie, they just fall for the psychological tricks the marketers have developed since advertising is everywhere. Again, you are talking about a small fraction of companies. In the USA, a company is considered a small business if it has under 500 employees which accounts for 99.7% of all businesses in the U.S.A. (about 30 million small businesses). I personally think 500 is pretty big to be counted as a small company, but look at how it further breaks down, according to the SBA: Firms with fewer than 100 employees account for 98.2%, and those with fewer than 20 employees account for 89%. I can guarantee you, firms with less than 100 employees, and for sure those with fewer then 20 employees, don't know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to marketing. This is from personal experience of calling over 100,000 small business owners over the years. So what you think in your head is just not true for the vast majority of companies out there. They don't hire a dozen marketers to exploit people, they just don't. They don't. Companies with less than 20 people don't even hire marketing companies that are on the level of Fortune 500 companies. I know I won't convince you of anything, but that is my point of view, so at least you understand a different viewpoint, whether you agree or not.

LegitShady 5y ago

Again, the purpose of marketing is to tempt people into spending money, usually as much money as possible to get them to spend. You can talk about over emotional people all you want, but for most people marketing does not a have a positive effect on their life whether they ‘resist’ overspending or not. It brings value to the marketers and marketed, the targeted are being targeted to get them to spend money, not for them to have benefit. You can define getting them to do what you want as their benefit but this is largely untrue. Is making money immoral? Not in and of itself. Is marketers pretending they’re doing marketing for everyone to benefit immoral? We’ll its certainly lying, and mostly to enrich themselves, so I’d say yes. Again, marketing as an industry is largely unnecessary and immoral except to get people to spend money on things they wouldn’t otherwise spend. We would all be better off with less marketing in our lives and in front of our eyes. If you ‘market yourself’ to get a job, you still aren’t a professional marketer doing marketing all the time. It’s the difference between someone who cooks at home and someone who cooks in a restaurant - you’re not really talking about the same thing even though you can try to muddy the waters and pretend its the same thing. I don’t care what companies should do or not do to let others know what they want them to know - it doesn’t change the negative influence of marketing on society and people in general, and it doesn’t make marketing a positive for anyone but those making money from it. That the association of marketers defines marketing as something good for everyone is lying. It’s good for them and their customers. That’s it. Everyone else knows it’s a lie, they just fall for the psychological tricks the marketers have developed since advertising is everywhere.

France_is_bacon 5y ago
ok, at least now you seem to be talking more rationally and less emotionally about it, which I appreciate. The way you use "marketers" to me seems incorrect. Most companies have a marketing department, so it's not really marketers, per se, it is corporations, and the CEO and CMO of the company that decide to do this. So really if you are saying that marketing is unnecessary and immoral, you are saying that just about every single company in the USA, and indeed the world, is by default, immoral. If that's your position, then that is your position. That is not a strawman or putting words in your mouth, that is just my abstracting what you said to a different level. If I'm wrong, let me know if that is not your position and why it doesn't hold true. And all companies don't lie. I agree that some companies are scumbag companies, for sure. Like cigarette companies, who I would like every executive to rot in hell forever. But most companies aren't lying. Are they spinning things to present themselves in the best light? Sure. It's like going on a date with a beautiful woman or man. Are you going to present your best face, or are you going to tell them that you fart and sometimes you miss the toilet bowl when you piss and every horrible gross thing about yourself? No. Or, maybe you would, but then you would be the outlier 6 standard deviations out there. Every normal person would not do this, meaning the vast majority of people. But I have had company salespersons who have flat out said that they cannot help me, that my needs don't match up with what they can do. They were not lying, they didn't get the commission or sale, and they were good with it. And of course, I've had salespeople lie to me. Both happened to me over the last week. Of course, I'm happy with the person who didn't lie, and not happy with the person who did, but I'm not losing sleep over it. It's the way it goes. As long as you do your due diligence, that's good enough, and if someone rips you off, at least you do your due diligence, so it's nothing to get upset about. But the point is, that I had many, many people who don't lie, and only very occasionally, rarely, even, those who do. This of course is anecdotal, but still, I think it is representative. > Is marketers pretending they’re doing marketing for everyone to benefit immoral? Well, this is absolutely not true, and if you take even one university marketing class, marketing 101, to any popular books written on the topic, they all universally disagree with this statement. The very first step in sales is to qualify/disqualify prospects. I look to disqualify people who are not a good fit, because who has the time? There are literally millions of customers for me, why even bother with someone who won't benefit? It doesn't even make sense. >Again, marketing as an industry is largely unnecessary and immoral except to get people to spend money on things they wouldn’t otherwise spend. I disagree. The purpose is to present and convince people, but the ultimate decision is in the hands of the purchaser, not the marketer. I understand that some people have no self-control and might be easily swayed, but those same people would probably be swayed to the same extent as if their friend asked them to help them rob a bank or something. >We would all be better off with less marketing in our lives and in front of our eyes. I don't disagree, but we all have that control in our lives. For example, I don't even own a television and don't watch it, for two reasons. One is that most of it is drival. Second is that I don't want to watch the commercials. Because I rarely buy things, extremely rare do I buy things, except for food. I have not been to a restaurant in at least 2 years. I purchased my used microwave from craigslist for $15, and only because I really needed one. Purchased my last (used) car for $4,000 in cash and it lasted me 17 years (averages out to $19/month, thank you very much) with no major repairs (thank you Toyota), and replaced it with another car that I bought for $5,400 in cash and expect it to last at least 10 years, and if I get to 15 or 20, yay. My point is that I get the same advertisements shot at me as everyone else does, but I don't let it affect me. Maybe I'm an anomaly. But that is why I recommend everyone to go to reddit /r/frugal. >If you ‘market yourself’ to get a job, you still aren’t a professional marketer doing marketing all the time. It’s the difference between someone who cooks at home and someone who cooks in a restaurant - you’re not really talking about the same thing even though you can try to muddy the waters and pretend its the same thing. It's still marketing, though. I agree, not professionally, but it still is. It's the same with cooking. I disagree with you on this, and against your claim that I am trying to muddy the water. >I don’t care what companies should do or not do to let others know what they want them to know Well, just humor me, then. Because it does bother you, what is the solution? What do companies do to sell their products and services? What are your thoughts? Should a plumber not market their service? How would someone even find a plumber if their pipes broke and their house was being ruined because of water damage, and they lose their $700,000 home? There has to be advertising. People need plumbers. They need food. They need electrician. They need doctors. Advertising is not getting people to buy stuff they don't need. Society needs all of this. > Everyone else knows it’s a lie, they just fall for the psychological tricks the marketers have developed since advertising is everywhere. Again, you are talking about a small fraction of companies. In the USA, a company is considered a small business if it has under 500 employees which accounts for 99.7% of all businesses in the U.S.A. (about 30 million small businesses). I personally think 500 is pretty big to be counted as a small company, but look at how it further breaks down, according to the SBA: Firms with fewer than 100 employees account for 98.2%, and those with fewer than 20 employees account for 89%. I can guarantee you, firms with less than 100 employees, and for sure those with fewer then 20 employees, don't know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to marketing. This is from personal experience of calling over 100,000 small business owners over the years. So what you think in your head is just not true for the vast majority of companies out there. They don't hire a dozen marketers to exploit people, they just don't. They don't. Companies with less than 20 people don't even hire marketing companies that are on the level of Fortune 500 companies. I know I won't convince you of anything, but that is my point of view, so at least you understand a different viewpoint, whether you agree or not.