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Creating an alternate reality of lies is a more direct path to tyranny. Particularly when that alternate reality causes people to distrust election outcomes and

Creating an alternate reality of lies is a more direct path to tyranny. Particularly when that alternate reality causes people to distrust election outcomes and public health guidelines. If a webmaster of a free website takes down an opinion they don't agree with, or don't want associated with their site, I'm fine with that. People have a right to free speech, but that doesn't mean others have to archive that speech in a database and serve it, out of pocket, in perpetuity.

marcusverus 5y ago
> Creating an alternate reality of lies is a more direct path to tyranny. Who has had greater success at this than the media? The two great narratives that undermined faith in the Democratic process in the past four years are A) Democrats claiming that there was evidence that Trump had colluded with the Russians to influence the 2016 election[0], and was therefor not a legitimate president[1][2], and B) Trump claiming that the 2020 presidential election was rigged by Democrats, and therefor Biden was not a legitimate president. Trump's lie was immediately panned as utter bullshit. Since, media have trumpeted the claim as evidence of insidious, anti-Democratic sentiment among all Republicans--in other words, the Anti-democratic claims made by Republicans were used a bludgeon against Republicans. But the former claim (which was no less damaging to the legitimacy of our institutions) was, in the absence of any corroborating evidence whatsoever, was treated as a serious concern. At the time of the release of the Mueller report, half of the country believed the Russia-collusion conspiracy theory[4]. When the Mueller report revealed no evidence of collusion[3], the story was used as a bludgeon against Democrats, right? Of course not. It was memory-holed. The fact that the media was able to weaponize both of these anti-democratic lies into a narrative that one party is somehow a danger to our institutions is emblematic of why they, the media are, in fact, the greatest threat to our society and our institutions. [0]https://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/schiff-russia-trump-collusion-236386 https://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/schiff-russia-trump-c... [1]https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hillary-clinton-trump-is-an-illegitimate-president/2019/09/26/29195d5a-e099-11e9-b199-f638bf2c340f_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hillary-clinton-trum... [2]https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/13/politics/john-lewis-donald-trump-legitimate/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/13/politics/john-lewis-donald-tr... [3]https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2019/03/mueller-concludes-investigation/ https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2... [4]https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-poll/despite-report-findings-almost-half-of-americans-think-trump-colluded-with-russia-reuters-ipsos-poll-idUSKCN1R72S0 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-poll/des...
- cjohnson318 5y ago
  > Who has had greater success at this than the media? Totally agree that FOX News and other of the right-wing pundits have helped create an alternate reality where election results and public health guidelines don't matter. You're talking about The Media as if the Right doesn't have a media apparatus. > When the Mueller report revealed no evidence of collusion Reading your link about Mueller and other summaries of the Mueller investigation, I get the feeling that the investigations was not a "nothing burger": the investigation produced 37 indictments, seven guilty pleas or convictions, and compelling evidence that the president obstructed justice on multiple occasions[0]. > Trump's lie was immediately panned as utter bullshit. Sure, AG Barr described the Big Lie as bullshit, but Hannity, Carlson, Ingraham, Crowder, and Shapiro haven't come anywhere close to that kind of a statement. Their gravy train runs on the Big Lie. If Republicans don't want to look anti-democratic, then they should have (1) unilaterally disavowed the January 6 Insurrection instead of denying it, or calling these people patriots, and they should (2) make voting as easy as buying a gun, since they're both rights protected by the Constitution. [0](https://www.acslaw.org/projects/the-presidential-investigation-education-project/other-resources/key-findings-of-the-mueller-report/ https://www.acslaw.org/projects/the-presidential-investigati...)
  - marcusverus 5y ago
    You're taking a contrary tone, but I think we're in agreement here. When it comes to Trump's lie about the 2020 election, the tone of the media in general was dismissive and highly skeptical due to a lack of evidence. The right-wing media was, of course, more credulous and willing to entertain the possibility of widespread election fraud... for a few months. When it comes to collusion conspiracy theory in the 2016 election, the media in general was highly credulous and willing to entertain the possibility--even in the absence of evidence. The media in general pushed this conspiracy theory for four years, while of course the left wing media was more credulous and willing to entertain the conspiracy theory. You're right that Mueller investigation resulted in a large number of charges, but none were related to the question of collusion. The media isn't forgiven for convincing half the country that Trump was a Russian puppet just because Paul Manafort laundered some money (unrelated to the Trump campaign), or because some Russians were running a troll farm (unrelated to the Trump campaign). Why even bring it up in a conversation about the collusion conspiracy theory, if not to muddy the waters?

marcusverus 5y ago

> Creating an alternate reality of lies is a more direct path to tyranny. Who has had greater success at this than the media? The two great narratives that undermined faith in the Democratic process in the past four years are A) Democrats claiming that there was evidence that Trump had colluded with the Russians to influence the 2016 election[0], and was therefor not a legitimate president[1][2], and B) Trump claiming that the 2020 presidential election was rigged by Democrats, and therefor Biden was not a legitimate president. Trump's lie was immediately panned as utter bullshit. Since, media have trumpeted the claim as evidence of insidious, anti-Democratic sentiment among all Republicans--in other words, the Anti-democratic claims made by Republicans were used a bludgeon against Republicans. But the former claim (which was no less damaging to the legitimacy of our institutions) was, in the absence of any corroborating evidence whatsoever, was treated as a serious concern. At the time of the release of the Mueller report, half of the country believed the Russia-collusion conspiracy theory[4]. When the Mueller report revealed no evidence of collusion[3], the story was used as a bludgeon against Democrats, right? Of course not. It was memory-holed. The fact that the media was able to weaponize both of these anti-democratic lies into a narrative that one party is somehow a danger to our institutions is emblematic of why they, the media are, in fact, the greatest threat to our society and our institutions. [0]https://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/schiff-russia-trump-collusion-236386 https://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/schiff-russia-trump-c... [1]https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hillary-clinton-trump-is-an-illegitimate-president/2019/09/26/29195d5a-e099-11e9-b199-f638bf2c340f_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hillary-clinton-trum... [2]https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/13/politics/john-lewis-donald-trump-legitimate/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/13/politics/john-lewis-donald-tr... [3]https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2019/03/mueller-concludes-investigation/ https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2... [4]https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-poll/despite-report-findings-almost-half-of-americans-think-trump-colluded-with-russia-reuters-ipsos-poll-idUSKCN1R72S0 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-poll/des...

cjohnson318 5y ago
> Who has had greater success at this than the media? Totally agree that FOX News and other of the right-wing pundits have helped create an alternate reality where election results and public health guidelines don't matter. You're talking about The Media as if the Right doesn't have a media apparatus. > When the Mueller report revealed no evidence of collusion Reading your link about Mueller and other summaries of the Mueller investigation, I get the feeling that the investigations was not a "nothing burger": the investigation produced 37 indictments, seven guilty pleas or convictions, and compelling evidence that the president obstructed justice on multiple occasions[0]. > Trump's lie was immediately panned as utter bullshit. Sure, AG Barr described the Big Lie as bullshit, but Hannity, Carlson, Ingraham, Crowder, and Shapiro haven't come anywhere close to that kind of a statement. Their gravy train runs on the Big Lie. If Republicans don't want to look anti-democratic, then they should have (1) unilaterally disavowed the January 6 Insurrection instead of denying it, or calling these people patriots, and they should (2) make voting as easy as buying a gun, since they're both rights protected by the Constitution. [0](https://www.acslaw.org/projects/the-presidential-investigation-education-project/other-resources/key-findings-of-the-mueller-report/ https://www.acslaw.org/projects/the-presidential-investigati...)
- marcusverus 5y ago
  You're taking a contrary tone, but I think we're in agreement here. When it comes to Trump's lie about the 2020 election, the tone of the media in general was dismissive and highly skeptical due to a lack of evidence. The right-wing media was, of course, more credulous and willing to entertain the possibility of widespread election fraud... for a few months. When it comes to collusion conspiracy theory in the 2016 election, the media in general was highly credulous and willing to entertain the possibility--even in the absence of evidence. The media in general pushed this conspiracy theory for four years, while of course the left wing media was more credulous and willing to entertain the conspiracy theory. You're right that Mueller investigation resulted in a large number of charges, but none were related to the question of collusion. The media isn't forgiven for convincing half the country that Trump was a Russian puppet just because Paul Manafort laundered some money (unrelated to the Trump campaign), or because some Russians were running a troll farm (unrelated to the Trump campaign). Why even bring it up in a conversation about the collusion conspiracy theory, if not to muddy the waters?