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No. Europeans / US seek to convince people of their ideology which is called propaganda (democracy, human rights, climate change, etc.) They don't launch offens

No. Europeans / US seek to convince people of their ideology which is called propaganda (democracy, human rights, climate change, etc.) They don't launch offensive operations with the sole goal of destroying the ability to have a conversation around the above (disinformation) and convince people there is no truth. The fact people think everyone behaves the same way is, in a large way, a big victory for authoritarian govs trying to convince people this is the case. After all, if everyone is guilty, no one is.

nerdponx 5y ago
> They don't launch offensive operations with the sole goal of destroying the ability to have a conversation around the above Maybe not the US government itself, but American corporations and various political and corporate interest groups do literally this all the time.
- fortuna86 5y ago
  Yes, but it's not coming from the government. Key distinction. Should there be stronger laws about dodgy private PR firms running disinfo and smear campaigns? Yes. Should platforms be held more responsible for not allowing their networks to be so easily gamed? Yes. But that is a separate matter.
Bluestein 5y ago
And, also, as stated below, use "content" / culture to project and persuade as per their values ... > ffensive operations with the sole goal of destroying the ability to have a conversation This here being the differentiating factor here, indeed.-
- fortuna86 5y ago
  There's a difference between attacking a rival political position, and attacking the concepts of truth and shared objective reality. Authoritarians want to spread cynicism and nihilism so their populations won't one day stop tolerating their corruption and oppression and demand political agency. It's literally a life or death conflict for them. If the whole of Russia or China wakes up tomorrow and demands free and fair elections, it's game over.
  - Bluestein 5y ago
    > If the whole of Russia or China wakes up tomorrow and demands free and fair elections, it's game over. I've often seriously wondered about this ... Would they not just as well be gassed, fired upon, ie. have the full brunt of their respective militaries turned upon them for the sake of "public order" or, as China would have it "Social Harmony"? Would they not just get "harmonized"?
    - fortuna86 5y ago
      Realistically it wouldn't be "everyone" it would be perhaps a slight majority of the total population. That way the gov could still mobilize half the population against the other half, respond with violence, and probably still retain power. But ideas spread quickly. If anything close to 80-90% of a population demands something, that thing is likely to happen. That's why the fight in the information space is so fierce, that's why the police response in HK was so violent, etc. Authoritarians know the stakes couldn't be hirer, so they fight this battle with everything they got. If a critical mass one day demands freedom their very lives are now at risk. Keep in mind, the people that ordered the military to fire on Chinese students in Tiananmen square, they are still in power. If the CCP were to fall, I would assume those people wouldn't escape justice. So they will fight like hell to avoid accountability.
      - Bluestein 5y ago
        > mobilize half the population against the other half, This, a likely scenario under such circumstances, sounds atrocious ...
        fortuna86 5y ago
        It would be a human tragedy on a scale we've never seen before. This is why an authoritarian government of 1.4 billion people terrifies me. If history is any guide, the state will fall. But if it doesn't happen peacefully, god help us.
        5y ago

nerdponx 5y ago

> They don't launch offensive operations with the sole goal of destroying the ability to have a conversation around the above Maybe not the US government itself, but American corporations and various political and corporate interest groups do literally this all the time.

fortuna86 5y ago
Yes, but it's not coming from the government. Key distinction. Should there be stronger laws about dodgy private PR firms running disinfo and smear campaigns? Yes. Should platforms be held more responsible for not allowing their networks to be so easily gamed? Yes. But that is a separate matter.

Bluestein 5y ago

And, also, as stated below, use "content" / culture to project and persuade as per their values ... > ffensive operations with the sole goal of destroying the ability to have a conversation This here being the differentiating factor here, indeed.-

fortuna86 5y ago
There's a difference between attacking a rival political position, and attacking the concepts of truth and shared objective reality. Authoritarians want to spread cynicism and nihilism so their populations won't one day stop tolerating their corruption and oppression and demand political agency. It's literally a life or death conflict for them. If the whole of Russia or China wakes up tomorrow and demands free and fair elections, it's game over.
- Bluestein 5y ago
  > If the whole of Russia or China wakes up tomorrow and demands free and fair elections, it's game over. I've often seriously wondered about this ... Would they not just as well be gassed, fired upon, ie. have the full brunt of their respective militaries turned upon them for the sake of "public order" or, as China would have it "Social Harmony"? Would they not just get "harmonized"?
  - fortuna86 5y ago
    Realistically it wouldn't be "everyone" it would be perhaps a slight majority of the total population. That way the gov could still mobilize half the population against the other half, respond with violence, and probably still retain power. But ideas spread quickly. If anything close to 80-90% of a population demands something, that thing is likely to happen. That's why the fight in the information space is so fierce, that's why the police response in HK was so violent, etc. Authoritarians know the stakes couldn't be hirer, so they fight this battle with everything they got. If a critical mass one day demands freedom their very lives are now at risk. Keep in mind, the people that ordered the military to fire on Chinese students in Tiananmen square, they are still in power. If the CCP were to fall, I would assume those people wouldn't escape justice. So they will fight like hell to avoid accountability.
    - Bluestein 5y ago
      > mobilize half the population against the other half, This, a likely scenario under such circumstances, sounds atrocious ...
      - fortuna86 5y ago
        It would be a human tragedy on a scale we've never seen before. This is why an authoritarian government of 1.4 billion people terrifies me. If history is any guide, the state will fall. But if it doesn't happen peacefully, god help us.
        5y ago