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Unfortunately, American politicians that claim to care about CO2 are tremendously hypocritical the minute prices come into play. They are happy to do things li

by JPKab 5y ago

Unfortunately, American politicians that claim to care about CO2 are tremendously hypocritical the minute prices come into play. They are happy to do things like halt the construction of pipelines or put a halt on new oil/gas leases on Federal land (it's just hurting a few thousand blue-collar workers, after all) while simultaneously lobbying OPEC to increase production to keep oil prices lower. (This is exactly what has happened with the Biden administration.). Even better has been the approval of the new German/Russian gas pipeline months after halting a massive pipeline in the USA. (Yes, I understand that the US pipeline was going to transmit very high carbon tar sands oil vs. the natural gas transported on the Russian pipeline) Carbon emitted in another country isn't any better than carbon emitted in your own country, but the religious-like attitude taken by certain politicians and climate activists ignores this. They seem to believe the supposed moral superiority of pushing carbon intensive activities outside of a nation's borders is worth something.

Robotbeat 5y ago
There's something to what you said, but I also don't think a totally nihilistic perspective is justified. No Administration is going to be perfect WRT climate change, and there are real political constraints on oil prices in the near term. What we need is to make electric vehicles (including PHEVs) like 80-100% of our vehicle mix, not ~1% for current cars on the road or 2-4% of new vehicles. Then oil prices wouldn't matter so much politically (it'll still affect industry, but that's much less impactful politically compared to motor gasoline prices). As far as Germany approving a pipeline with Russia, well... I agree it's pretty dumb. Germany needs to just end their coal entirely, which in the very near term means more gas, but they should also try to reverse the closure of nuclear power plants.
- hedora 5y ago
  > No Administration is going to be perfect WRT climate change The problem is that we need them to be, or we’re all going to die (of fire, pollution, flooding, food shortages, etc.) To see what I mean, try to buy a 6” diameter PVC sewer pipe. A large percentage of global PVC is still offline due to the Texas freeze last winter. This is causing road work and repairs to ground to a halt. At the current rate of industrial collapse, how long until water treatment and other life-critical industries go offline?
- JPKab 5y ago
  I own a Tesla, so I'm into electric cars and doing what's necessary to minimize vehicular carbon emissions. That being said, oil is a globally fungible commodity, and the less we use here in industrialized countries, the cheaper it gets for use in developing nations. Historically, developing nations have always chosen to maximize energy consumption by using the cheapest sources available. How is this going to be mitigated? I'm not aware of any discussions on this topic, but hope they exist.
  - selectodude 5y ago
    The amount of "cheap" oil has fallen dramatically. Only a handful of sources can drill for less than $20/bbl and make a profit.
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    The US is actually a net exporter of oil (and oil products), gas, and coal. So if we eliminated current consumption and production in the US, it would actually increase prices slightly overseas. But to really answer your question: 1) We invest in tech and scale up to make renewable energy cheaper than fossil fuel. Other countries will benefit from our scale and tech improvements, reducing the relative competitiveness of fossil fuels. 2) ban production and exports of fossil fuels. Instead, actually export clean energy in the form of ammonia/nitrate fertilizer (from green hydrogen), liquid hydrogen, perhaps synthesized LNG, synth fuels, clean electricity. 3) border adjustments and a CO2-based import tarrif. 4) cultural imperialism making clean energy good (fast electric cars are an excellent example) and fossil fuels unpalatable. 5) International agreements and treaties. 6) tied to that, maybe targeted aid contingent on climate action.

by JPKab 5y ago

Robotbeat 5y ago

There's something to what you said, but I also don't think a totally nihilistic perspective is justified. No Administration is going to be perfect WRT climate change, and there are real political constraints on oil prices in the near term. What we need is to make electric vehicles (including PHEVs) like 80-100% of our vehicle mix, not ~1% for current cars on the road or 2-4% of new vehicles. Then oil prices wouldn't matter so much politically (it'll still affect industry, but that's much less impactful politically compared to motor gasoline prices). As far as Germany approving a pipeline with Russia, well... I agree it's pretty dumb. Germany needs to just end their coal entirely, which in the very near term means more gas, but they should also try to reverse the closure of nuclear power plants.

hedora 5y ago
> No Administration is going to be perfect WRT climate change The problem is that we need them to be, or we’re all going to die (of fire, pollution, flooding, food shortages, etc.) To see what I mean, try to buy a 6” diameter PVC sewer pipe. A large percentage of global PVC is still offline due to the Texas freeze last winter. This is causing road work and repairs to ground to a halt. At the current rate of industrial collapse, how long until water treatment and other life-critical industries go offline?
JPKab 5y ago
I own a Tesla, so I'm into electric cars and doing what's necessary to minimize vehicular carbon emissions. That being said, oil is a globally fungible commodity, and the less we use here in industrialized countries, the cheaper it gets for use in developing nations. Historically, developing nations have always chosen to maximize energy consumption by using the cheapest sources available. How is this going to be mitigated? I'm not aware of any discussions on this topic, but hope they exist.
- selectodude 5y ago
  The amount of "cheap" oil has fallen dramatically. Only a handful of sources can drill for less than $20/bbl and make a profit.
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  The US is actually a net exporter of oil (and oil products), gas, and coal. So if we eliminated current consumption and production in the US, it would actually increase prices slightly overseas. But to really answer your question: 1) We invest in tech and scale up to make renewable energy cheaper than fossil fuel. Other countries will benefit from our scale and tech improvements, reducing the relative competitiveness of fossil fuels. 2) ban production and exports of fossil fuels. Instead, actually export clean energy in the form of ammonia/nitrate fertilizer (from green hydrogen), liquid hydrogen, perhaps synthesized LNG, synth fuels, clean electricity. 3) border adjustments and a CO2-based import tarrif. 4) cultural imperialism making clean energy good (fast electric cars are an excellent example) and fossil fuels unpalatable. 5) International agreements and treaties. 6) tied to that, maybe targeted aid contingent on climate action.