4 ms·

When I mentioned in another thread this happening to other open source projects (winmerge, kdiff3) [0], I was told I was making stuff up and/or this is in 'best

When I mentioned in another thread this happening to other open source projects (winmerge, kdiff3) [0], I was told I was making stuff up and/or this is in 'best interest' of users and that this only happens because these are 'uncommon applications'. Its going to be amusing to read replies to this thread. Pardon the snark, but this is BS and its really sad to see this shitshow being defended. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27355191 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27355191 edit: typo

gruez 5y ago
>I was told I was making stuff up and/or this is in 'best interest' I read the comment thread. It's unclear which comment said that you were "making stuff up". There's also zero matches for "best interest" (your direct quote). >that this only happens because these are 'uncommon applications'. Relatively speaking, winmerge and kdiff3 are quite uncommon, compared to the normal stuff that people have installed on their computers. >Pardon the snark, but this is BS and its really sad to see this shitshow being defended. Are you against people defending microsoft on principle, or are simply unsatisfied with the explanations given? The explanation given (ie. unknown software -> don't know whether it's safe -> warn users it's unknown) seems pretty reasonable to me, as it fails closed rather than fail open. For a technical user that might not be an acceptable trade-off, but I also don't see it as an unacceptable default for non-technical users.
- josephcsible 5y ago
  > Relatively speaking, winmerge and kdiff3 are quite uncommon, compared to the normal stuff that people have installed on their computers. I think you missed the point here. The fact that programs are uncommon isn't a legitimate excuse for Microsoft to falsely flag them as malware and then not fix it.
  - gruez 5y ago
    I'm must be missing some context here. Did OP and/or the project flag this problem to microsoft?
- e3bc54b2 5y ago
  I admit and apologize for salty tone above. It is not very constructive, and I agree, and would like to elaborate. This isn't the first time such thing has happened and it won't be last. Windows has becoming more and more painful as Operating System as in operating the machine and has been trying to operate the user instead. The incidents I mentioned about Winmerge and Kdiff3 did happen with me and I stand by that. Above comment does not quote anyone but convey my understanding of the replies in general, which I now understand to be less than perfect. But, > unknown software -> don't know whether it's safe -> warn users it's unknown You must be able to realise that it is not exactly presented in such manner as to be "unknown". Unknown would simply mean windows doesn't know about it and its upto user's discretion. Microsoft, by virtue of all the telemetry, happen to know that this application is uncommon. Why not say that? Why not let the user decide whether they want to run an uncommon app? What is happening here instead, however, is it gets presented as "dangerous" and blocked by default. This, along with Microsoft's position ends up being (in my humble opinion) an abuse of powerful position. And that, again, in my own humble opinion is unacceptable in being defended.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    TBH, Windows shouldn't even be in the business of having any opinion on uncommon software. If they want to collect data sets for virus protection, go ahead. If they want to hash installed files from common software to detect divergences for virus protection, go ahead. But having any kind of notification that an install is uncommon? We call it a general purpose computer because we want to use it for general purposes: which is to say, uncommon purposes. This feels like ape'ing Apple without thinking it through.
    - gruez 5y ago
      > But having any kind of notification that an install is uncommon? We call it a general purpose computer because we want to use it for general purposes: which is to say, uncommon purposes. How much % of the windows install base do you think is running random programs that they downloaded off github, and how many are just running the top 1000 programs (eg. chrome/office/winrar)?
auxym 5y ago
the Nim compiler is also getting flagged by Defender: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/17820 https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/17820
Someone1234 5y ago
> Its going to be amusing to read replies to this thread. I feel like respondents did a good job in the previous thread explaining what is going on and why. Your summation of that interaction, tone then, and tone today seemingly suggests you've got a predetermined conclusion in mind and consider any other interpretation/explanation as inherently adversarial. Or to phase this more simply: This isn't constructive. You should assume good faith in the people who respond to you, test your assumptions, rather than simply dismissing any insight as a blanket "defense."
bob1029 5y ago
> I was told I was making stuff up and/or this is in 'best interest' of users This is the sensation I get too. "Why don't you just use regedit/gpedit/etc." (this approach is hilariously insufficient) Some days I feel like giving up on tech because of how the corporate PR machines have ruined large swathes of the community. It is getting harder and harder to find actual answers to questions like "how do I remove the windows defender binaries from my PC?" If the TI approach stops working, I am moving to linux and I am taking our product's platform along for the ride too.
kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
They need to bring Ballmer back to throw some chairs around for the sake of the developers.

gruez 5y ago

>I was told I was making stuff up and/or this is in 'best interest' I read the comment thread. It's unclear which comment said that you were "making stuff up". There's also zero matches for "best interest" (your direct quote). >that this only happens because these are 'uncommon applications'. Relatively speaking, winmerge and kdiff3 are quite uncommon, compared to the normal stuff that people have installed on their computers. >Pardon the snark, but this is BS and its really sad to see this shitshow being defended. Are you against people defending microsoft on principle, or are simply unsatisfied with the explanations given? The explanation given (ie. unknown software -> don't know whether it's safe -> warn users it's unknown) seems pretty reasonable to me, as it fails closed rather than fail open. For a technical user that might not be an acceptable trade-off, but I also don't see it as an unacceptable default for non-technical users.

josephcsible 5y ago
> Relatively speaking, winmerge and kdiff3 are quite uncommon, compared to the normal stuff that people have installed on their computers. I think you missed the point here. The fact that programs are uncommon isn't a legitimate excuse for Microsoft to falsely flag them as malware and then not fix it.
- gruez 5y ago
  I'm must be missing some context here. Did OP and/or the project flag this problem to microsoft?
e3bc54b2 5y ago
I admit and apologize for salty tone above. It is not very constructive, and I agree, and would like to elaborate. This isn't the first time such thing has happened and it won't be last. Windows has becoming more and more painful as Operating System as in operating the machine and has been trying to operate the user instead. The incidents I mentioned about Winmerge and Kdiff3 did happen with me and I stand by that. Above comment does not quote anyone but convey my understanding of the replies in general, which I now understand to be less than perfect. But, > unknown software -> don't know whether it's safe -> warn users it's unknown You must be able to realise that it is not exactly presented in such manner as to be "unknown". Unknown would simply mean windows doesn't know about it and its upto user's discretion. Microsoft, by virtue of all the telemetry, happen to know that this application is uncommon. Why not say that? Why not let the user decide whether they want to run an uncommon app? What is happening here instead, however, is it gets presented as "dangerous" and blocked by default. This, along with Microsoft's position ends up being (in my humble opinion) an abuse of powerful position. And that, again, in my own humble opinion is unacceptable in being defended.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  TBH, Windows shouldn't even be in the business of having any opinion on uncommon software. If they want to collect data sets for virus protection, go ahead. If they want to hash installed files from common software to detect divergences for virus protection, go ahead. But having any kind of notification that an install is uncommon? We call it a general purpose computer because we want to use it for general purposes: which is to say, uncommon purposes. This feels like ape'ing Apple without thinking it through.
  - gruez 5y ago
    > But having any kind of notification that an install is uncommon? We call it a general purpose computer because we want to use it for general purposes: which is to say, uncommon purposes. How much % of the windows install base do you think is running random programs that they downloaded off github, and how many are just running the top 1000 programs (eg. chrome/office/winrar)?

auxym 5y ago

the Nim compiler is also getting flagged by Defender: https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/17820 https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/17820

Someone1234 5y ago

> Its going to be amusing to read replies to this thread. I feel like respondents did a good job in the previous thread explaining what is going on and why. Your summation of that interaction, tone then, and tone today seemingly suggests you've got a predetermined conclusion in mind and consider any other interpretation/explanation as inherently adversarial. Or to phase this more simply: This isn't constructive. You should assume good faith in the people who respond to you, test your assumptions, rather than simply dismissing any insight as a blanket "defense."

bob1029 5y ago

> I was told I was making stuff up and/or this is in 'best interest' of users This is the sensation I get too. "Why don't you just use regedit/gpedit/etc." (this approach is hilariously insufficient) Some days I feel like giving up on tech because of how the corporate PR machines have ruined large swathes of the community. It is getting harder and harder to find actual answers to questions like "how do I remove the windows defender binaries from my PC?" If the TI approach stops working, I am moving to linux and I am taking our product's platform along for the ride too.

kevin_thibedeau 5y ago

They need to bring Ballmer back to throw some chairs around for the sake of the developers.