5 ms·

Even if you’re willing to devote 10 years of your life to chess you will not become a grandmaster unless you’re starting out as a child. You might be some kind

by bijant 5y ago

Even if you’re willing to devote 10 years of your life to chess you will not become a grandmaster unless you’re starting out as a child. You might be some kind of Ramanujan level chess prodigy, but those are rare these days and in any case You would find out quickly if you had that degree of talent. The accessibility of chess databases and engines that even the world champions of yore did not have means that anyone with a smartphone can train at the highest level. The best Ballerinas start dancing quite young, the greatest Chess Players have to start even younger. The case of the Polgar Sisters [1]is quite instructive. So even if your ambitions to become a GM might be doomed, you’re Children might just realize what you never will. [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/László_Polgár https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/László_Polgár

belter 5y ago
On "The Man vs. The Machine" https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-man-vs-the-machine-fivethirtyeight-films-signals/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-man-vs-the-machine-...
js8 5y ago
I really admire Laszlo Polgar, and I agree that everybody can be raised a genius, but there is a caveat in it too - it takes a lot of effort on part of parents to groom children that way. Maybe it's easier than to become a chess GM, but in practice, lot more effort than most people are willing to (or even can) afford.
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  With Olympics going on, this is very relevant. China has a training camp to dominate all aspects of the Olympics and training at young age is absolutely crucial. https://youtu.be/8-OGKGmxSbw https://youtu.be/8-OGKGmxSbw
yboris 5y ago
Thank you so much for sharing László Polgár! I have not heard of him before - I love his work now! I believe his claim: if we tried, we could turn "any healthy newborn" into "a genius". László Polgár raised his children focusing on chess. His two daughters became the best and second-best female chess players in the world.
- Scarblac 5y ago
  He had three daughters, the youngest was "only" an IM, but one of her tournament results was so astonishing people still refer to it as "the sack of Rome". ( https://www.chess.com/blog/damafe/the-sack-of-rome-magistrale-di-roma-1989 https://www.chess.com/blog/damafe/the-sack-of-rome-magistral...).
  - sireat 5y ago
    Sofia is the middle daughter - reportedly the most talented. Judith being the youngest had that kill instinct at an early age. The sibling dynamic is something I did not appreciate until I had kids of my own.
    - yboris 5y ago
      I feel like there's a bit of irony in using the word "talent" in light of what László Polgár's work was attempting to demonstrate.
    - ZephyrBlu 5y ago
      Curious about what sibling dynamics you've observer. I'm the oldest child, and my youngest sibling definitely doesn't have, "that kill instinct".
- The_Colonel 5y ago
  > I believe his claim: if we tried, we could turn "any healthy newborn" into "a genius". I don't. Intelligence is partially heritable, which is also the problem with his experiment. He was himself a leading intellectual, the probability that his daughters will inherit his high intelligence is pretty good. (it's not that much known about the mother, but I assume he married someone with above average intelligence as well).
  - yboris 5y ago
    I agree that intelligence is partially heritable. But there is also "regression to the mean" - where, for example, we should expect children of taller parents to be taller than average, but often not as tall as their parents. There is likely tremendous potential that we as a society waste by not providing resources and opportunities for and and encouragement of better education at earlier stages of life. Personally, I learned to read by 3 years old, but not because I was a prodigy -- but because my mom spent numerous hours encouraging me and building in me a love of it. I am confident more than 50% of children can learn to read by age 5 - meanwhile in the US we don't expect that kind of success until after a few years of schooling.
yupper32 5y ago
> Even if you’re willing to devote 10 years of your life to chess you will not become a grandmaster unless you’re starting out as a child. Well that's bullshit. The main reasons adults don't start chess and reach grandmaster levels at the same rate as those starting as children is the lack of free time and the lack of desire to put in the effort. Those two things eliminates the vast vast vast vast majority of adults, but it's not a factor in your hypothetical. If some adult wants to spend 10 years of their life mastering chess, and didn't have to worry about work, life, dating, children, etc, they'd have about the same chance as a child of becoming a Grandmaster eventually. The chance is still extremely low for each, of course.
- rodiger 5y ago
  Surely neuroplasticity is a factor as well.
  - yupper32 5y ago
    Maybe. But it's not a significant enough factor to say "you will not become a grandmaster unless you’re starting out as a child". I'd wager that free time (and overall lack of responsibilities) is the vast vast vast vast majority of what factors into children excelling at chess. Am I a bit off when I say "they'd have about the same chance as a child", all else the same? Maybe. But it's certainly closer to reality than the original post I responded to.
    - tralarpa 5y ago
      > I'd wager that free time (and overall lack of responsibilities) is the vast vast vast vast majority of what factors into children excelling at chess. I don't agree, but I cannot prove my position. It's an interesting question that also applies to other fields (music etc.). My opinion is that when a child starts a certain activity at a young age, that activity "burns" its patterns into their brain like a language. I see that effect with one of my kids: although we started learning to play an instrument at the same time (and I can guarantee you with 100% certainty that he didn't practice more than I in terms of number of hours), his way how he handles the instrument and the music is completely different from mine: completely natural (like a mother tongue), recognizing patterns without needing to think about them,... I am certainly not the first who made this observation. The question is why chess should be different.

by bijant 5y ago

belter 5y ago

On "The Man vs. The Machine" https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-man-vs-the-machine-fivethirtyeight-films-signals/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-man-vs-the-machine-...

js8 5y ago

I really admire Laszlo Polgar, and I agree that everybody can be raised a genius, but there is a caveat in it too - it takes a lot of effort on part of parents to groom children that way. Maybe it's easier than to become a chess GM, but in practice, lot more effort than most people are willing to (or even can) afford.

systemvoltage 5y ago
With Olympics going on, this is very relevant. China has a training camp to dominate all aspects of the Olympics and training at young age is absolutely crucial. https://youtu.be/8-OGKGmxSbw https://youtu.be/8-OGKGmxSbw

yboris 5y ago

Thank you so much for sharing László Polgár! I have not heard of him before - I love his work now! I believe his claim: if we tried, we could turn "any healthy newborn" into "a genius". László Polgár raised his children focusing on chess. His two daughters became the best and second-best female chess players in the world.

Scarblac 5y ago
He had three daughters, the youngest was "only" an IM, but one of her tournament results was so astonishing people still refer to it as "the sack of Rome". ( https://www.chess.com/blog/damafe/the-sack-of-rome-magistrale-di-roma-1989 https://www.chess.com/blog/damafe/the-sack-of-rome-magistral...).
- sireat 5y ago
  Sofia is the middle daughter - reportedly the most talented. Judith being the youngest had that kill instinct at an early age. The sibling dynamic is something I did not appreciate until I had kids of my own.
  - yboris 5y ago
    I feel like there's a bit of irony in using the word "talent" in light of what László Polgár's work was attempting to demonstrate.
  - ZephyrBlu 5y ago
    Curious about what sibling dynamics you've observer. I'm the oldest child, and my youngest sibling definitely doesn't have, "that kill instinct".
The_Colonel 5y ago
> I believe his claim: if we tried, we could turn "any healthy newborn" into "a genius". I don't. Intelligence is partially heritable, which is also the problem with his experiment. He was himself a leading intellectual, the probability that his daughters will inherit his high intelligence is pretty good. (it's not that much known about the mother, but I assume he married someone with above average intelligence as well).
- yboris 5y ago
  I agree that intelligence is partially heritable. But there is also "regression to the mean" - where, for example, we should expect children of taller parents to be taller than average, but often not as tall as their parents. There is likely tremendous potential that we as a society waste by not providing resources and opportunities for and and encouragement of better education at earlier stages of life. Personally, I learned to read by 3 years old, but not because I was a prodigy -- but because my mom spent numerous hours encouraging me and building in me a love of it. I am confident more than 50% of children can learn to read by age 5 - meanwhile in the US we don't expect that kind of success until after a few years of schooling.

yupper32 5y ago

> Even if you’re willing to devote 10 years of your life to chess you will not become a grandmaster unless you’re starting out as a child. Well that's bullshit. The main reasons adults don't start chess and reach grandmaster levels at the same rate as those starting as children is the lack of free time and the lack of desire to put in the effort. Those two things eliminates the vast vast vast vast majority of adults, but it's not a factor in your hypothetical. If some adult wants to spend 10 years of their life mastering chess, and didn't have to worry about work, life, dating, children, etc, they'd have about the same chance as a child of becoming a Grandmaster eventually. The chance is still extremely low for each, of course.

rodiger 5y ago
Surely neuroplasticity is a factor as well.
- yupper32 5y ago
  Maybe. But it's not a significant enough factor to say "you will not become a grandmaster unless you’re starting out as a child". I'd wager that free time (and overall lack of responsibilities) is the vast vast vast vast majority of what factors into children excelling at chess. Am I a bit off when I say "they'd have about the same chance as a child", all else the same? Maybe. But it's certainly closer to reality than the original post I responded to.
  - tralarpa 5y ago
    > I'd wager that free time (and overall lack of responsibilities) is the vast vast vast vast majority of what factors into children excelling at chess. I don't agree, but I cannot prove my position. It's an interesting question that also applies to other fields (music etc.). My opinion is that when a child starts a certain activity at a young age, that activity "burns" its patterns into their brain like a language. I see that effect with one of my kids: although we started learning to play an instrument at the same time (and I can guarantee you with 100% certainty that he didn't practice more than I in terms of number of hours), his way how he handles the instrument and the music is completely different from mine: completely natural (like a mother tongue), recognizing patterns without needing to think about them,... I am certainly not the first who made this observation. The question is why chess should be different.